Philokalia Ministries
Episodes
2 days ago
2 days ago
What is our standard of judgment? When we consider anything about life in this world, or our struggle with vice, or seeking to grow in virtue, where do we look? So often we, even in our spiritual struggles, look to our own reason and judgment. The problem with this is that we only see partial truths, even when we see things clearly. We all have hard spots and blind spots in our perception of reality and of others. If anything, John’s writing on anger and meekness remind us that there must be a willingness as Christians to suspend our judgment and allow the grace of God to touch our minds and hearts; so that we can perceive the greater reality about the other person, even when they commit evil against us. The standard for us is Christ. The standard is the cross and cruciform love. It is when our minds and our hearts have been shaped by this Love, that we begin to be guided by the spirit of peace; and our minds are illuminated with the greater truth of the goodness of the other created in the image and likeness of God and redeemed by the blood of Christ.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:32:08 Deb Dayton: So many (me) hear to rebut, rather than listen for understanding
00:44:13 Jeff O.: So holy/righteous anger is anger directed at the true enemy - the “demons” - and anger towards another undermines their dignity as an imager of God>
00:48:14 Ambrose Little, OP: Might have more luck typing it in.
00:51:25 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: What about anger that motivates one to take action for justice for others? Any room in the Fathers for this? Or is that called something else in their terminology?
00:54:34 Daniel Allen: It is interesting because it seems like Christ acted by suffering with the suffering and without destroying the one causing the suffering
01:00:49 Daniel Allen: A hopeful reading for the Irish such as myself
01:03:24 carol nypaver: Can’t acting out a virtue (patience/silence) lead us to actually acquire that virtue?
01:06:05 Ambrose Little, OP: It seems like while anger can be a useful motivator to act, the more perfect motivation is love. If we see someone hurting and in need, the motivation of compassion and charity seems more than sufficient motive to act, even when the pain/need is caused by some injustice. And when love is our motive, we can then turn that same love towards even the offender, who may be in even greater need by their damaging of their relationship with God and others—they may be imperiling their eternal soul, in addition to whatever circumstances may have led to their unjust action. Contrast that to anger, which only tends to act in favor of the victim, while often seeking the suffering of the offender (or at best ignoring the offender’s need).
01:14:51 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂
01:14:54 iPhone (2): Thank you!
01:15:01 Jeff O.: Thank you, great being with you all.
01:15:01 Art: Thank you!!
Thursday Jan 12, 2023
Thursday Jan 12, 2023
What does it mean to live in Christ and for Him? Perhaps this is a question that we rarely ask ourselves because it’s too threatening. What would our lives look like if our response to God was absolute? What would our mourning for sin look like if our love for God was filled with desire for Him and for His will?
One would imagine that life, our lives would look much different. It is not just one part of ourselves that is to be touched by the grace of God, but every aspect of our being, our very essence. Saint John and the other Desert fathers speak of mourning for one’s sin in such a visceral fashion because they understood that they were called to participate in a Godly love. God took our flesh upon Himself in order that we might come to experience the fullness of His life and love. To experience themselves as turning away from this gift or betraying this love could only bring about the deepest mourning and their hearts. The question that we perhaps should be asking ourselves is: “why do we lack this quality of mourning?”
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Text of chat during the group:
00:24:51 Charbel & Justin: What page?
00:25:00 Bridget McGinley: 118
00:36:55 Anthony: This is interesting since I can't be the only one who wants to understand _before_ practicing; who wants to know before and judge whether something is worth perseverance.
01:05:59 Anthony: From my college Greek class, there is another connotation: "eleison" comes from the root "luo", "to loosen."
01:22:24 Ambrose Little, OP: It didn’t quite strike me this way before these meditations we are studying, but St. Paul seems to have been expressing this kind of mourning when he wrote about his inability to do the good he wants to do (in his inner self that loves the law of God) but instead does the evil at hand (in his flesh which is at war with himself): “Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body?” But also immediately he proceeds to gratitude for victory through grace: “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” The same also leads him to “glory in [his] weakness.”
01:25:47 Ambrose Little, OP: (The above was from NABre 🤷🏻♂️ 🙂 )
01:26:05 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:26:57 Jeff O.: Thank you!
01:27:08 kevin: Thank you
01:27:19 Cindy Moran: thank you
Wednesday Jan 04, 2023
Wednesday Jan 04, 2023
Our journey with Saint John Climacus has not been an easy one; in fact, we get a taste of walking upon that narrow path that leads to the kingdom simply through reading about his vision of the spiritual life and his experience. It reflects the reality and the challenges of the spiritual life, and in particular a life of penance and repentance. To give ourselves over to God, to seek his love above all things, to desire him more than we desire our own lives is the path that St. John is putting before us.
However, there is something within us that resists walking this path. Quite simply it is our ego - the self. Even in our pursuit of God, we can make ourselves every bit as willful in our spiritual discipline as we are in our relationships with others, and in our day-to-day work. Through his description of compunction (sorrow over one’s sins eventually leading to the experience of Godly Joy) St John is seeking to free us from the grip self-centeredness and its delusions.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:09:51 FrDavid Abernethy: page 166 para 49
00:09:56 Kate Truta: Hello! We are new to the group. We live in Colorado.
00:10:13 FrDavid Abernethy: page 116
00:10:20 Eric Ewanco: Welcome, Kate!
00:10:41 Kate Truta: Thank you! Good to be here!
00:19:40 Deb Dayton: Some I send to bring Father s lot of joy!
00:19:49 Deb Dayton: *Duke
00:21:20 Anthony: It's as if these accusations are like a kind of hell
00:24:59 Eric Ewanco: … or, purgatory
00:25:01 Kathy Locher: Can someone tell me what page we're on?
00:27:21 Bridget McGinley: 117 number 51
00:27:43 Kathy Locher: thanks!
00:29:40 Anthony: How does one distinguish the right "amount" of compunction versus a demonic despondency due to slander?
00:29:48 Cindy Moran: Flippant
00:30:14 Eric Ewanco: 👍🏻
00:31:08 Rebecca Thérèse: I'd heard previously that demonic knowledge is incomplete. Is that true and if so what does it mean?
00:41:49 Rachel: It seems like he means something even deeper than not distracting oneself from pain of heart or just as you are alluding to, he is taking it even further. Some songs can console and/or enhance one's sorrow that comes from a passionate nature or natural temperament. When the morning is composed, hidden and is allowed to go deep within by waiting on Our Lord, not escaping into a sorrow that consoles but waves of that abyss wash over one..
00:42:18 Rachel: Mourning'
00:43:08 Rachel: lol me!
00:44:13 Rachel: Sorry, didnt complete that because St. John is describing it..
00:48:35 Rachel: Father, can you think of a Saint whose life really manifests this gift St. John is speaking about? I am sure all of the Saints in some degree experience this but I mean whereit was clearly manifest. Would St. Theresa and St. Therese be examples of this joy?
00:51:55 Vicki Nichols: St. John Neumann manifests this gift, particularly when he was a young man.
00:52:10 Anthony: So then this fear is not necessarily "wrong" and self-focused, it is not merely an assault of the enemy but it is a permitted stage of repentance? Is it like what we call attrition that leads to contrition?
00:54:40 Vicki Nichols: iwas responding to the person before
00:54:44 Vicki Nichols: yes
00:56:17 Ambrose Little, OP: St. Dominic was said to often weep while keeping vigil. And he was also known to be supernaturally joyful.
01:00:00 Anthony: Another deep poet on these themes is St. Gregory of Narek, Doctor of the Church.
01:06:39 Cindy Moran: How does this apply to the Jesus Prayer?
01:08:49 Anthony: Is "constant receptivity" you often mention, or overthinking, evidence of the faculty of contemplation, but it is turned to an unworthy and self-destructive subject?
01:14:42 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:14:46 Rachel: haha
01:14:52 Cindy Moran: 😊
01:15:29 Bridget McGinley: Thank you
01:15:35 Anthony: Thank you!
01:15:38 Ashley Kaschl: Thank you, Father!
01:15:39 Jeff O.: Thank you!
01:15:44 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father!!
01:15:52 Rebecca Thérèse: Happy New Year🙂
01:15:57 Riccardo Orlandi: God bless
01:16:01 Riccardo Orlandi: thank!
Wednesday Dec 28, 2022
Wednesday Dec 28, 2022
We continued our discussion of “joy making mourning” from the Ladder of Divine Ascent. It is like seeing an image slowly come to a state of clarity. There is something so difficult and stinging to our sensibilities when reading this text that it is hard to allow that to happen. But this evening we began to get glimpses of the beauty that St. John is trying to place before our eyes. He wants us to see that tears came into this world as a result of sin. God has given them in order that He might cleanse and purify the heart, and that our sorrow might give way to joy and laughter. God does not ask or desire that we should mourn from sorrow of heart, but rather that out of love for Him we should rejoice with spiritual laughter. God wants to heal us and bring us to the place where sin will be abolished and pain, sorrow and sighing, will have fled away.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:15:03 FrDavid Abernethy: page 114 no 28
00:17:58 Ashley Kaschl: I’d say hi but my mic is being weird 😂
00:18:08 Ashley Kaschl: 😂😂
00:20:33 Rebecca Thérèse: Sorry I'm late, connectivity issues
00:31:53 Ren Witter: I am finding this just so hard. If there is a hurt or injustice, that at times brings up intense feelings of resentment, is that going to be a constant impediment to union with God for as long as the hurt lasts? I guess it just makes me feel a bit hopeless
00:40:21 Ambrose Little, OP: Interesting aside: I saw a scientific experiment recently that showed tears have different chemical compositions based on the circumstances causing them.
00:40:48 Ren Witter: Yes! I love that study
00:40:48 Bridget McGinley: Ambrose that is fascinating!
00:41:41 Ren Witter: And not only that, but they contain a natural pain relieving component particular to the cause. Its really amazing.
01:19:46 Ashley Kaschl: Do you think the grace that leads to compunction is stopped by a division in one’s heart? Like we can want to be truly contrite for sins but also have a hidden attachment to sin which allows for a tension to present itself, but maybe we think about it as frustration or failure? When in reality, it’s a matter of God’s timing?
01:22:43 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:22:52 Bridget McGinley: Goodnight thank you
01:23:32 Babington (or Babi): Thank you!
01:23:39 Ashley Kaschl: Thank you, Father! Good to see you!
Wednesday Dec 14, 2022
Wednesday Dec 14, 2022
Even in the act of mourning the loss of a loved one, our thoughts can return very quickly to the things of this world. The reality of death is something that we rarely linger long with in our thoughts and imagination even when it draws close to us.
Yet, in the writings of the fathers, it is precisely the urgency that the awareness of the brevity of our life places upon us that is so important. We must not neglect the fact that our life in this world is very short.
What is it that we spend our time on? What is the focus of our energy? Do we desire God and what He alone can fill within the human heart or are we constantly seeking the things of this world?
St. John’s writing on mourning over one’s sin is a stark reminder of who we are as human beings. We have almost an infinite capacity for self-delusion and self-deception. Even the shedding of tears can be filled with self-esteem or concern with self image more than with the sorrow over the diminishment of the relationship of love with God. Do we really love virtue and hate sin? Is there an urgent longing for God that leads to zeal in the spiritual life and prayer or do we easily slide into sloth and negligence? Do we distract ourselves with intellectual discussions about the faith and yet never practice the mourning of which St. John speaks?
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Text of chat during the group:
00:12:21 FrDavid Abernethy: page 122
00:18:23 Debra: Just walked in from shoveling snow!
00:18:43 FrDavid Abernethy: page 122
00:18:45 FrDavid Abernethy: 112
00:21:01 Rebecca Thérèse: jailors
00:21:23 Rebecca Thérèse: It's the British spelling
00:27:04 Anthony: There is the kind little dog mentioned in Book of Tobit! :)
00:28:05 Anthony: The theives break in to steal, but the watchdog of concentration scares them away - maybe?
00:34:25 Daniel Allen: That makes me think of the wise and foolish virgins. The foolish virgins were told to buy more oil, and they wept outside of the wedding banquet. Is John playing off of that at all, suggesting we must mourn - and so acquire more oil - before we can enter the wedding feast as the wise virgins?
00:39:38 Anthony: Father, is there a "psychological" element to help us govern these thoughts? Because, meditating on all the evil one has done - veen the littlest bit and the evil one can do can make one go almost mad.
00:49:02 carol nypaver: Amen!
00:53:47 Anthony: Like the Apostles in the Garden of Gethsemane
00:54:04 Debra: That #21 could be on a bookmark for my Breviary
00:58:49 Debra: I think Ven Fulton Sheen said, in response to 'The Mass is so long', 'It's because your love is short'
01:10:54 Anthony: adulteration?
01:10:56 Anthony: alloy?
01:16:48 Anthony: And THAT's how Nephilim could be made....
01:22:46 Jeffrey Ott: Amen, thank you!
01:22:51 Anthony: Thank you :)
01:22:52 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:22:55 Rachel: Thank you
Wednesday Dec 07, 2022
Wednesday Dec 07, 2022
The more deeply one reads the fathers, the more one begins to see that what is being revealed is the terrain of the human heart. The fathers do not present us with a varnished truth about ourselves or our sin. The path that leads to freedom and holiness is Christ alone. It is by his grace and mercy that we are brought healing and hope. So much of the spiritual life involves letting go of the illusions that we cling to about ourselves and life in this world. It involves slowly breaking down those defenses that, while fulfilling their purpose, are too costly. They prevent us from seeking healing where it can truly be found. We are called to more than just cope with reality. We are called to enter into He who is Reality and allow Him to heal us and transfigure us by His grace. This brings us to a state of deep mourning. We gaze into the abyss, the hell that is sin. Yet while painful, St John begins to explain, it gives place to incorruptible chastity and the warmth of the “immaterial Light that radiates more than fire!”
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Text of chat during the group:
00:16:42 CMoran: My family in Slovakia make it...you can run your lawnmower on their stuff.
00:25:56 Anthony: Father, would you please distinguish these tears from the tears of sin born of scrupulous fear?
00:30:50 Eric Ewanco: www.scrupulousanonymous.org
00:31:44 Anthony: Thank you, Father, that is a good way to distinguish the two fears.
00:33:47 CMoran: Would St Philip Neri be a good example of this?
00:36:15 Bridget McGinley: I heard that Solzhenitsyn in The Gulag Archipelago stated that those with a sense of humor had a greater constitution to bear the trials. I have not read this book but it struck me because I have read Fr. Walter Ciszek with God in Russia and I cannot imagine the sorrows.
00:40:16 Anthony: I guess St. Francis had this blessed, gladdening sorrow. His fear or sorrow alternated with bliss, but although he was lighthearted, he was solid in God's reality.
00:43:41 Daniel Allen: Maybe it’s how it’s worded but how does fear of an “uncompassionate and inexorable judge” give way to love for that same uncompassionate judge?
00:45:22 carol: “Sadness purifies us. Man is truly man in sadness. In joy he is changed, he becomes someone else. In sadness he becomes that which he truly is. And this is the way, par excellence, that he approaches God…” Elder Epiphanios
00:50:28 Rachel: St Silouan
00:51:20 Rachel: This is what Christ told him when he had fallen into pride and was allowed to see his state.
00:54:51 Anthony: When I started finding catechetical materials to take in, I came across a popular internet Orthodox radio station. One of the things they seemed to emphasize is that it is wrong to meditate on the passion of Christ - which is quite sad as well as triumphant. It looks like that is incorrect and not the true way to orient our minds, but we should meditate on this?
00:59:35 Rebecca Thérèse: I find the poem Pastorcico (the little shepherd) by St John of the Cross very helpful in meditating on the Passion because it emphasises Christ's love in giving himself on the Cross for us. So to meditate on the Passion is to meditate on the great love of Christ for us.
01:01:33 Ambrose Little, OP: Perhaps there is something in this related to the notion of the love of the Law, that it is through the Law (and its judgment, as so, the Judge) that we see what is evil, truly repugnant to Life and Love (that is, the nature of God). And seeing that stark God-repelling reality allows us to more clearly see, by contrast, the Goodness and Love of God, and to desire Him all the more because of that seeing. The fear of God is the fear of sin and its consequences—the beginning of wisdom. Seeing what God hates and judges harshly against reveals to us the love of God, because He hates what harms us, what pulls us away from Him.
01:12:21 Daniel Allen: This makes sense. If you plead guilty you will skip past trying to prove your innocence and simply ask for mercy from the judge. But if you are busy trying to put up a defense you have no time to simply beg for mercy.
01:16:26 Henry Peresie: That happens often in Facebook.
01:22:48 CMoran: Thank you Father...great session!
01:22:54 Jeffrey Ott: Amen, thank you!
01:22:56 Rachel: Thank you
01:23:01 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:23:06 kevin: thank you
01:23:08 Deiren Masterson: God bless you Father - you are a gift.
Tuesday Dec 06, 2022
Tuesday Dec 06, 2022
Tonight as a group we read hypothesis 30. It was a striking and detailed description of the nature of the spiritual battlefield, the demons powers (both their ferocity and their limitations), and how we must engage them. First and foremost, we must always understand the God in his providence guides and protects us. He never lets us be afflicted in the spiritual battle by more than what his grace provides to conquer. This still requires, however, that in our freedom we take hold of the precious grace that he has given to us.
One of the things that we are warned against is laziness. We must not take the grace of God for granted, or receive it in vain. In the spiritual battle, we must not think that having overcome one demon that we are now impervious. There is a demon for every kind of passion that we struggle with and every circumstance. If we overcome one demon, we should only expect that one more fierce will come upon us. We must then be ever vigilant; always training ourselves to set aside our own will to embrace the will of God. We have a tendency to constantly be on the lookout for ways to make our life easier. This includes the spiritual life. The whole focus of it can shift to ourselves rather than to God. We must fight our tendency to reduce the struggle that we engage in on a daily basis. We must see ourselves as always exercising our faith, and the grace of God has provided us in order that we might be ever more faithful to his will.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:14:09 FrDavid Abernethy: Hypothesis XXX
00:26:35 Anthony: We are like clams, demons are like starfish. We've got to struggle to keep the shields closed to their devouring stomachs.
00:31:04 carol: And obedience
00:59:08 Eric Ewanco: “If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; for you will heap coals of fire on his head, and the LORD will reward you.” (Proverbs 25:21–22, RSV2CE)
00:59:43 sue and mark: I always thought the enemies were my own sins
01:07:55 Rachel: Servant of God Fr. Willie Doyle used this very saying to help him keep going when faced with temptations against his many mortifications.
01:12:41 Rachel: Yes, it has!
01:13:36 Rachel: Like the Evergetinos, Fr. Willie Doyle's book can be jarring
01:13:54 Jack: Christmas gift for men
01:18:22 Rachel: Waale!!
01:18:23 Anthony: Wall E
01:18:27 Rachel: Wall e
01:20:11 Rachel: Thank you
01:20:23 sue and mark: good night and God Bless all
01:20:24 Sheila Applegate: Feel better!
Wednesday Nov 23, 2022
Wednesday Nov 23, 2022
To read Saint John and the other fathers, and to read their writings deeply is to find oneself caught up in wonder. We begin to see that so much of the spiritual life, its discipline, and the hardships the fathers endured, are a reflection of their desire.
These were men that were filled with a holy longing for what Christ alone could satisfy. They ran with a kind of swiftness and sought to unburden themselves from anything that would be an impediment or weigh them down and prevent them from entering into the fullness of the life and love of Christ. The remembrance of death and mourning over one’s sins are not practices that are abstracted from our relationship with Christ and the love that has been revealed to us in Him. All of these things spur us on to enter into His embrace, and never leave it.
If the Christian life and the ascetic life is seen outside of this relationship then, as Saint Paul tells us, we are the most pitiable of all men. God has created us for Himself and in so doing has created a hunger that He alone can satisfy. We have been made for love and our hearts will find no rest until they find the One for whom they long.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:26:26 Anthony: I believe I read part of St. Thomas More's meditation on death (he being quite Western), that the pain of the soul leaving the body, is quite real, and a necessary evil.
00:27:00 Anthony: I was just affirming what you wrote, that's all. :)
00:35:34 Anthony: You said we magnify the importance of things out of proportion to their value - this is fearing things temporal, but not having fear of the Lord, isn't it?
00:42:51 Sheila Applegate: As much as I know in my heart God fulfills and heals and is all, sometimes.God feels empty and disconnected and lacking and the things here feel fulfilling or at least tangible and in that, familiar and comforting. So therein lies a temporal conflict of interest.
00:49:48 Sheila Applegate: Yeah. That makes sense.
00:49:58 Sheila Applegate: We grasp at the concrete.
00:59:59 Anthony: TO combine a martial arts analogy with the Crucifixion - this fear is like throwing the enemy off balance. Christ was the bait swallowed by death willingly, so that He could catch death and defeat it. We follow His example, and take hold of this enemy so that we can in His grace and example direct death to our benefit>
01:15:31 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Lord, give us Your Love to love you with!
01:16:26 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:16:27 Jeffrey Ott: Thank you!! Happy Thanksgiving!
01:16:28 Deiren Masterson: God bless father - all. Thank you
01:16:29 Rachel: Thank you
Thursday Nov 17, 2022
Thursday Nov 17, 2022
We take a step now with Saint John that one likely would not consider as essential - The Remembrance of death. John begins by makes some important distinctions for us. There is a fear of death that is rooted in its very nature; the loss of life and the end of life as we know it because of the Fall. There is also a kind of terror of death that is rooted in unrepented sins. Focus upon God and his love, a repentant spirit, drives out fear from the human heart. At one point John describes it as a “fearless fear”. We acknowledge our own mortality, the brevity of this life, the weight and significance of our actions; however, in light of our relationship with Christ and the conquering of death through the resurrection, the mindfulness of death is something that always leads to hope. Our mindfulness of our mortality sharpens our focus upon what has value and weight. The deeper and more perfect faith becomes, the more we are going to long to be with Christ in such a way that knows of no impediment and no limitation. Of course there are going to be those who are incorrigible; those so deeply rooted in the things of this world and the pursuit of satisfying their own desires, that the notion of remembering death seems cruel to them or meaningless. For Christians, however, it becomes the path to virtue and once we have tasted it, experienced the disciplines that surround the remembrance of death, then our hearts begin to be filled with joy. Ultimately this is where John is leading us; from the sorrow and mourning of our sin to the fruit of repentance - joy!
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Text of chat during the group:
00:26:57 FrDavid Abernethy: page 107
00:36:07 Anthony: So the remembrance of death is an antidote to avarice: Lust of flesh, lust of eyes, pride of life?
00:50:40 Anthony: Is fear sometimes from an overexaggerated sense of duty?
01:12:35 Bridget McGinley: I once was advised to fast from speech..... it transformed my spiritual life. Fasting can be in various forms I suppose.
01:14:24 Anthony: I at times read about a Russian Martial Art called "Systema." It incorporates ascetic practice and Russian Orthodox faith into its mindset and training; and the persons who testify to it say their experience is life changing; instructors claim to have many godchildren around the world because their came to appreciate Orthodoxy through living this ascetic and self-aware. martial art.
01:23:33 Rebecca Thérèse: Fasting also has many physical health benefits
01:24:14 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you🙂
01:25:15 Rafael Patrignani: thank You father
Thursday Nov 10, 2022
Thursday Nov 10, 2022
It has always been difficult for men to allow God to lead them in accord with His wisdom. There is always a part of us that wants to embrace what fits in with our judgment and view of things rather than allowing God to reveal - that is, to draw back the veil - in order that we might see the deeper truth. This is especially true when it means being drawn into the Paschal Mystery; the dying and rising of Christ and also our participation in that dying and rising. What does this mean for us, what does it mean to be faced with the abyss of sin and its darkness and to experience this darkness within our hearts? What does it mean to walk in hope even though we cannot see what lies ahead, when no light penetrates the darkness. St. John invites us to make that journey. The spiritual life takes place in the context of this tremendous mystery. It is not going to be comfortable and we will often want to look away or rationalize why this mystery cannot or does not touch our lives. It becomes very difficult for us to trust in the mercy of God when He invites us so deeply into the mystery of our own redemption. We would still have it our own way. The path of humility and obedient love, especially as we see it manifest on the cross is always going to be a test to our faith and our desire for God.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:13:45 Cindy Moran: I am changing my name to Cindy Fitznstartz.
00:14:44 Mark Cummings: 😂
00:14:44 Cindy Moran: This was from something you said in your session on Monday.
00:35:24 Cindy Moran: Were the men in the "Prison" still under any obligation to recite the Psalms or something of the like?
00:52:25 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: 2 Peter 2:22 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
Berean Standard Bible · Download
Cross References
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.
John 10:6
Jesus spoke to them using this illustration, but they did not understand what He was telling them.
Treasury of Scripture
But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
The dog.
Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
2 Peter 2:22 " The dog returns to its own vomit and the sow afer washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire..
00:53:07 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: sorry I was thinking about this passage and by accident sent it too quickly
00:57:19 Robert Anderson: that others may be holier than me...powerful
00:59:35 Robert Anderson: the only thing I can take credit for is my
sins
00:59:59 Eric Ewanco: 👍🏻
01:01:01 Anthony: The prayers attributed to St. Basil in the Publican's Prayer Book are examples of deep self-knowledge and poverty. They inspire me in self--knowledge and contrition.
01:07:27 Ambrose Little, OP: Aside: Origen was no atheist. ;)
01:10:12 Daniel Allen: There is an amazing book called Laurus. It’s a recent novel, but it may flesh out the concept of the prison in a detailed way
01:20:20 Anthony: The more deeply and purely one loves, the more grieved one is by evil towards the lover - and horrified when _we did the evil against the Pure Beloved._
01:27:26 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:27:41 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father
Wednesday Nov 02, 2022
Wednesday Nov 02, 2022
As a group we read through Saint John’s description of the “Prison”, that place of deep repentance freely entered and embraced by those who had broken their vows and sinned against God.
John holds the image of this place before our eyes in order that it might act as a mirror. Listening to the description and envisioning it within our minds, we are to ask ourselves: Do we see the same kind of sorrow over sin and infidelity in the face of Love? Do we see anything within us of the zeal that these men have for the Lord? Having fallen into the pit of iniquity are we equally willing to sink into the abyss of the humility of the repentant?
We seem perfectly willing to bear the indignity of sin and its tyranny even though we understand that Christ took our flesh upon Himself, made Himself to be sin in order that He might also take upon Himself the consequence of that sin which is death. What is our awareness of that reality and faith revealed to us? Does it pierce the heart? Do we bewail the loss of virtues as if they were children that have died? Do we cry out, where is my purity of prayer? Where is my former boldness? Where the sweet tears instead of the bitter? Where is the hope of perfect chastity and perfect purification? Where is my faith in the shepherd?
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Text of chat during the group:
00:17:46 Anthony: "Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted."
00:25:40 Anthony: Perhaps this mourning is actually the goal of even modern day sentences for fallen religious to retire to a monastery and do penance for great sins? This sounds like it is for the most serious of sins.
00:32:12 Daniel Allen: This oddly makes me think of Mary holding Jesus when he was taken from the cross. Her Son, all her joy and blessing, now lifeless and in her hands but not there. But awaiting the resurrection
00:39:21 Carol: It reminds me of the Song of Songs, chasing after the Beloved.
00:45:14 Rachel: you touched upon something that I was wondering about. How at the core of a lack of a desire to make reparation to live a penitential life in the acknowledgment of what sin does to us, is a lack of faith in the goodness of God.
00:54:42 Ren: The thought that is coming most to mind, for me, in reading this step is: do I take my sin seriously? Do I really accept the truth about what sin does, and what its “wages” are? - death. That death reenters the world within me with each sin. Or do I take the crucifixion for granted? So far removed from it as a historical event that I am comfortable with what has been done for me? Sadly, I realize that I really do hold sin lightly.
01:00:18 Anthony: The movie "The Professor and the Madman" illustrates this kind of lifelong mourning for a deed - even an evil deed that might not have been done by a madman.
01:00:35 Ashley Kaschl: Love that movie. So true.
01:00:39 Anthony: *might _have_ been done by a madman
01:05:21 Rachel: I want to add to what Ren was touching upon. Many people are uncomfortable with shame, I am speaking of a healthy shame that is the result of real sin. How one can be discouraged by others who are uncomfortable with really entering in to the suffering of another and what bigger suffering is there than sin and its consequences? This is why God became man.
01:08:58 Ashley Kaschl: A priest once helped someone I know to understand penance as a daily thing, not just something you do after confession, especially when he gave that someone a lifelong penance for a sin not connected to murder or something horrifically physical but for a spiritual sin. This priest did not do so as a punishment, and it was in the bounds of not being an unjust burden upon the person, but because the person had been approaching a sin against the Holy Spirit (despair of God’s mercy). So the balm, according to this confession, was a life-long, daily prayer as a penance so that the soul would not be confounded by this temptation. Obviously, this is not the norm these days, but I have met a few people who have such penances, who aren’t murderers or rapists or thieves, etc. But I think it is interesting to ponder.
01:15:11 Babington (or Babi): Thank you. 🙏🏼💔🙏🏼✝️
01:15:28 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:15:37 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father.
Wednesday Oct 26, 2022
Wednesday Oct 26, 2022
Thank you to everyone who participated tonight in a very challenging reading and discussion of The Ladder of Divine Ascent.
Synopsis:
Tonight we began Step Five on painstaking repentance and an account of the Prison, another monastic community for those who have broken their vows and embraced a life of deep penance. This is probably the most difficult part of The Ladder to read. It requires the most work from us as readers to think about what John is doing. Why does he present us with such an image? Why paint a portrait of such a place of pain and affliction? Does he not risk losing readers because of the story? What is described is disturbing and meant to be so. For seeing what is so disturbing, our willingness to look at it and the unvarnished truth it present us with, also allows us to grasp its opposite – the invincible joy of knowing and loving Christ. Indeed, the sorrow is part of the joy.
We can only begin to understand St. John’s description of repentance and “the Prison” in light of the Cross itself. We see Christ take upon himself the sin of the world and what it cost him and how he sweat blood in the garden of Gethsemane. These men of the Prison, that place of deep penance, entered into the Paschal mystery so deeply and could see the beauty of it so fully that their mourning and sorrow was a participation in the sorrows of the cross. And the desolation that they experienced was that of Christ himself calling out “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.” We tend to think of things in isolation and our own experiences in isolation from others and from those of Christ. But what we have seen with the fathers over and over again is this kind of radical solidarity that exists between us and that allows us to participate in the redemptive aspects of Christ’s work including the sorrows and darkness of the Cross and the descent into Hell.
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” Galatians 2:20.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:12:41 FrDavid Abernethy: Beginning Step 5 on page 97
00:33:32 Eric Ewanco: I've heard it said that the first sin involved eating which is why fasting is so important
00:47:59 Ashley Kaschl: In paragraph 7, that seems like a debilitating shame, how would one break free from that?
00:52:13 Cathy Murphy: The last sentence in paragraph 7 is challenging. If they are full of sorrow and repentant how are their souls offering nothing to God?
00:58:13 Ambrose Little, OP: I find it difficult to reconcile what appears to be dwelling in sorrow with confidence in God’s work in our lives and the lives of others. If the promises are true, then it seems like we should mostly dwell in joy and gratitude as penitents.
01:17:33 Mary M: I might be off because I missed the reading itself, but it seems like one of those Catholic principles held in tension together, where it's "both and" rather than "either or." It's neither despair over the depth of the gravity of sin nor presumption on the mercy of God, but simultaneously the deepest sorrow and joy in light of the reality of our sin and God's mercy.
01:25:26 Ambrose Little, OP: Seeing it as a mirror of the effects of sin (a kind of picture of hell) is helpful to me.
01:34:11 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you 🙂
01:34:12 Jeffrey Ott: Thank you so much! Great to be with you all.
Wednesday Oct 19, 2022
Wednesday Oct 19, 2022
We are called to be conformed to Christ. How easy it is to say such a thing. Yet, so often, our understanding of faith, obedience, humility, and charity is defined within the narrow limits of human reason and understanding. We grow very uncomfortable with what is undefined or what lacks boundaries. Allowing our souls to be stretched by faith, to be drawn along by wonder and led by the Spirit can feel terrifyingly vulnerable. The ego is most often the center of our existence. To let go of the false-self and to seek one’s identity and dignity in Christ is challenging to say the least. In fact, only God can bring us to such a place. Our striving, our ascetical life, our responsiveness to the grace of God is important. Yet in the end it is God alone who can purify the heart and who can open our eyes through the gift of faith to see the beauty of self-sacrificing love and obedience.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:10:26 FrDavid Abernethy: page 95 para 114
00:26:40 Ashley Kaschl: Was just about to say…Reminds me of how Christ was silent before His accusers during the Passion
00:28:23 Cindy Moran: This over-sensitivity is called taking umbrage.
00:31:55 Ren: (Concerning paragraph 116). Something that is coming to mind is that, in doing this, I could easily see a danger of becoming resentful for silently accepting abuse, and then following it with an apology - and one that might not be all that sincere. How would we do this, without allowing a spirit of anger to take root?
00:33:10 Anthony: Gluttony had an extra connotation at the time, since food and wine or beer was more scarce, took more work, was more tied to the seasons and was therefore more precious, and eating too much is a wound on other people who by right had a share in the common food. It's not like John could drive over to the Kroger and buy Boars Head cold cuts at will if someone ate too much.
00:43:14 Daniel Allen: I think resentment also comes when one thinks one is unjustly accused or put down, when in reality what tends to confront us is more true (in one way or another) than we want to admit. And when it may not be a fair accusation on the surface, in one way or another it is likely true. When we realize our own sin put to death God Himself, what accusation could be false? How could distinction still matter. And when it’s still difficult then what St. Philip Neri said can always apply, there except for the grace of God go I? Remembering one’s own sinfulness makes this easy. Forgetting it makes it excruciating to bear.
00:50:02 Rachel: yep
00:50:40 Johnny Ross: The gap between ought and is represents a fundamental dichotomy in our identity. Isn't unity the ultimate trajectory of our walk in Christ. Individual unity, unity with the Church and, ultimately, Unity with God.
00:53:00 Rachel: You touched upon something I have been wondering about and that is how we find the ego everywhere. Where one has to really discern how one or, why, what motivates one to follow Christ. If at all!
00:53:35 Rachel: And I think this is where patience comes in to support one in the spiritual life
00:54:11 iPhone: I heard a sermon on Sunday in which the priest told about his struggle w/ anger & his spiritual director encouraged him to continue in his prayer over time…suggesting to him that he was lacking courage when he wished to give up the struggle. The struggle took a full year — patience & courage.
00:54:23 Rachel: We must patiently, with love wait for Christ to reveal himself to us, in a way that He chooses to reveal Himseld.
00:57:31 Rachel: lol
01:17:27 Ashley Kaschl: My app updated and I don’t know how to raise my hand so sorry this is past time 😂
01:17:30 Ashley Kaschl: The end of Gaudium et Spes paragraph 24 comes to mind when I think of what we’ve talked about in regards to obedience and conforming oneself to Christ, that “man cannot find himself except through a sincere gift of self.” And I think it takes an extreme amount of grace and trust to get to a place of vulnerable docility to the Holy Spirit. Vulnerability, I think, has the root of Vulnera, which means “being open to a wounding” and it makes sense that this would be required if every soul who wishes to be a saint.
01:18:29 Art: Gotta run. Thank you and good night all.
01:20:30 Rachel: When the illusions are stripped away there is nothing but our Lord to cling but they cant pull themselves up and they linger on the brink of madness or what looks like madness from love.
01:20:59 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: I can only agree after living over 50 years in and under obedience. It is costly to one's ego in a healing way if one cooperates, dies to self-will. And it is such a protection for one's life - it's often kept me out of trouble!
01:21:24 Rachel: Thank you Sister!
01:22:26 Jeffrey Ott: Thank you!! Always a joy to be with y'all.
01:22:29 Rachel: Thank you
01:22:31 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you
01:22:38 Rebecca Thérèse: 🙂
01:22:43 Cindy Moran: Thank you Fr Abernethy!
Wednesday Oct 12, 2022
Wednesday Oct 12, 2022
The unvarnished truth is not easy to hear or see. This is especially true when it reveals that which is within our own heart or what is lacking in our love or our faith.
Saint John Climacus gives us many stories from the lives of monks who live obedience to the point where it surpasses reason and right judgment; or when it seems to reach the point of absurdity. And indeed this is how the world sees Christianity and in its truest form; as foolishness and a stumbling block. In so many ways we have domesticated the gospel and the Christian life. What we bear witness to is the love of the kingdom made manifest in Christ and the cross.
We let go of self-will and self-identity in order to put on the true self that is found only in Christ. We are sons and daughters of God and our identity is to be shaped by this reality. All that we do must begin and end with God otherwise it is vanity. When reading the fathers we are compelled to ask ourselves, “Who am I?“Who is Christ to me?”
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Text of chat during the group:
00:15:07 FrDavid Abernethy: page 92 para 110
00:16:56 Bonnie Lewis: Do tell.
00:17:45 Bonnie Lewis: your room is looking nice
00:18:33 Eric Ewanco: you do have a euphonious voice
00:25:08 Br Theophan the non-recluse: What page #? I was totally spaced out when Fr David announced it😀
00:27:18 Bonnie Lewis: 92, para 110
00:28:02 Br Theophan the non-recluse: Thanks!
00:32:59 Anthony: Trisagion Films had one film - I think it was about St. Joseph the Heychast - who was impelled to leave an unkind elder, after enduring for a while.
00:35:39 Rachel: I am amazed about how Acacius doesnt draw attention to his suffering but simply states what has happened when asked. It is a clear example of how obedience leads to humility
00:37:21 Eric Ewanco: mine says "fool" instead of "blockhead"
00:38:40 Carol Nypaver: Ours is the Charlie Brown translation.🤣
00:38:59 Anthony: So much for Italian grandmas as elders....
00:39:51 Eric Ewanco: Is this a representation of the idea of Purgatory, that there is debt from our sin that we need to suffer to resolve?
00:42:27 Anthony: 38 years
00:46:30 Eric Ewanco: Xenia?
00:46:55 Anthony: Basil of Moscow, Way of the Pilgrim Author, St. Francis of Assisi
00:47:58 Anthony: Andrew the Charcoal-burner
00:48:27 Rachel: St Benedic Labre
00:50:07 Eric Ewanco: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Fool-for-Christ
00:54:09 John Cruz: Are there contemporary fools for Christ? Is this a charism for even our times?
00:54:32 Rachel: What??Noooo
00:54:39 Rachel: lol oh dear
00:54:48 John Cruz: LOL
01:04:02 Anthony: Religious communities don;t need to be formally approved; people can just have their own informal community, no?
01:11:12 Ambrose Little, OP: There are benefits of being in a recognized/authorized community, though.
01:15:23 Johnny Ross: We must embrace the scars of this battle-the obstacle is the way
01:22:04 Anthony: John Cruz wanted to know if there are contemporary Fools for Christ.
01:22:56 Johnny Ross: Thank u Father
01:23:00 Jeffrey Ott: Thank you!!
01:23:08 Rachel: Thank you Father and everyone
01:23:11 Rebecca Thérèse: Thank you
01:23:15 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father.
Wednesday Sep 28, 2022
Wednesday Sep 28, 2022
“Put out into the deep.”As we picked up with the Saint John’s writing on the spirit and practice of obedience the path set before us becomes ever so clear. We are called to be conformed to Christ. He is the standard by which we measure our lives and see what we have become in and through Him. We are to love obedience not because it brings satisfaction and joy in this world or because the things that happen to us or are asked of us conform to reason or our natural sensibilities. The fruit of obedience is humility; truthful living. It is living in accord with the truth of the kingdom that is revealed to us in and through the gift of faith. Obedience acts as that furnace of humiliation; it strips away from us the illusion of right judgment according to our own standards. What we are offered is so much more. Saint John quotes the great Cassian and tells us that humility gives rise to true discernment and out of true discernment comes clairvoyance and foreknowledge. We begin to see things, by the grace of God, through the eyes of Christ and in accord with the wisdom of the kingdom. What in this life should we desire more than this? Why do we find ourselves running back again and again simply to satisfy our own will and to manage our own life in a way that brings us fleeting happiness? We are promised the joy of the kingdom and participation in the perfect love of God. This is not something that we can put on and take off as we do a garment. This is our identity and it must shape everything in our lives and in our hearts.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:11:38 Ren: Thanks Lori! I would have my camera on, but I’m drying my hair :-D
00:16:24 Cindy Moran: How was the mini retreat last Saturday?
00:16:28 FrDavid Abernethy: page 91
00:17:27 Miron Kerul Kmec: https://lifegivingspringspodcast.podbean.com/
00:17:27 Cindy Moran: Great!! Working in TV for 42 years...I needed it!
00:25:01 Eric Ewanco: wormwood/honey: This is a hard saying!
00:31:42 Eric Ewanco: Can we apply this principle to the current situation in the Church with +Francis?
00:45:42 Ambrose Little, OP: Following on from #104, it seems to me it's not really obedience if you agree with the direction you’re given--then you're effectively still just following your own will and mind. It’s when you are directed to something that you don't currently agree with or don't understand fully that it takes obedience, at least as a practical virtue. This is where the rubber meets the road, as it were, with regards to one’s bishop and the Holy Father--or one's own spiritual director.
00:51:54 Ambrose Little, OP: That's obedience to the rubrics. 🙂
00:53:34 Cathy Murphy: Music and signing effect a different part of the brain and creates a different experience
00:55:01 Rachel: LOL
00:55:40 Anthony: There's something in the Imitation of Christ, like: "There are so many difficult things in the Bible, sometimes it's best not to think too much if you can't understand." It applies to a lot of Christian life. Thinking too much and forcing understanding can be a self-inflicted wound.
00:58:52 Johnny Ross: This is a process of isolation since most people do not understand or appreciate any of this.
01:00:14 Eric Ewanco: my translation has insight instead of clarivoyance
01:00:59 Anthony: Padre Pio and violets
01:04:36 Ren: I can’t even imagine being perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. I would have to become a totally different person. I’m sure that’s the point 😄
01:07:32 Ren: Its so hard…I’m sure when we are told to “put on Christ” we are meant to do so in the way a graft is put on - so very closely and permanently. Instead, putting on Christ for me is at the most like putting on a coat that quickly becomes too hot or uncomfortable - or unneeded - and is tossed aside.
01:07:33 Mark Cummings: It reinforces that I need to pray the prayer “I believe, help my unbelief” very very often
01:07:58 Anthony: This is amazing. The idea "be perfect," even in the relationship to examining conscience is something that can be crushing....but the blossoming flower of hope in God is something else entirely. This hope something happy, even knowing a person is a sinner, and I wish this hope were emphasized more in the relationship to examining conscience.
01:12:58 Johnny Ross: Optionality is the Grand illusion. We are inundated with choices in this consumer driven culture yet the way is narrow
01:14:56 Johnny Ross: Thank You
01:19:51 Eric Ewanco: I like the term "spiritual warfare". :-)
01:22:15 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: "Give thanks in all things..."
01:22:17 Rachel: Thank you!
01:22:21 Johnny Ross: Great as usual, Thanks Father
01:23:01 Johnny Ross: Amen
01:23:02 Bridget McGinley: Thank you
01:23:05 Rachel: Have a beautiful retreat!!
01:23:08 Miron Kerul Kmec: Thank you
01:23:14 Rachel: Thank you Ren!!
01:23:28 Art: Great job Ren!!
01:23:29 kevin: thanks renz!
01:23:31 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: thank you
01:23:33 Lori Hatala: very user friendly
01:23:34 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father...great session!
01:23:37 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: address
01:23:46 Cindy Moran: Thank you Ren!
01:23:48 Hannah Hong: Thank you
01:23:54 sue and mark: good night and God bless you and everyone. have a blessed retreat
01:24:00 kevin: thanks everyone
Thursday Sep 22, 2022
Thursday Sep 22, 2022
One participant in this evening‘s group commented that the counsel that St. John gives is eminently practical. This is true of the writings of the fathers as a whole. Their wisdom is rooted in Praxis; the practice of the faith, the exercise of the faith. Their writings seem to make so much sense because they are rooted in experiences that we so often take for granted or fail to explore. What is our motivation for doing or not doing certain things? What is it that drives us or leads us to negligence?
What one begins to see in John’s teaching is the beauty of obedience. Obedience is our capacity to listen to God without any impediment caused by self-will, without our ego blinding us to the truth about ourselves. Setting aside the false self allows us to act with a precious freedom. It cuts through all of our machinations about particular circumstances or responsibilities. It allows us to take up things with love and to see them through the eyes of love. We begin to understand why the fathers, then, speak of loving the virtues. We are to love obedience because it is not something that inhibits us but rather allows our true identity to emerge. It brings healing to our fundamental spiritual sickness as human beings - to put ourselves in the place of God. One of our great weaknesses is that we project our own image on to God and so create the illusion of fidelity.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:15:23 Marco da Vinha: Good evening from Blighty!
00:19:10 Daniel Allen: I’m sorry where are we at?
00:19:37 Bonnie Lewis: #91
00:20:03 Daniel Allen: Thank you
00:25:26 Ambrose Little, OP: About meditating on what's in the office, part of the purpose of the antiphons and the brief meditation at the start of each psalm/canticle is to give the mind an anchor for that meditation, not too dissimilar from the mysteries in the rosary. Perhaps the antiphons were added after Climacus to help address the challenge of focus during communal psalmody.
00:28:51 Marco da Vinha: Would those be the Gyrovagues St. Benedict (very sparingly) talks about?
00:36:57 Bonnie Lewis: This is so beautifully written.
00:44:38 Daniel Allen: That is SHOCKINGLY practical for parents. I would love to do an all night vigil when my toddler is screaming during the night. But if he sleeps, last thing I’d want is to be woken up. And that same example during the day as well.
00:49:52 Daniel Allen: This makes me think, can God allow things mentioned here such as vain glory, to keep the monk in his cell
00:51:43 Johnny Ross: Interesting that the Evil one first tempted Christ with Bread in the desert
00:53:04 Marco da Vinha: @Johnny Ross: Adam and Eve's Fall was breaking the only rule of fasting He had given them 😅
00:53:27 Daniel Allen: I had a question above about the previous section 96
01:00:50 Daniel Allen: A freedom from one’s own self will
01:01:21 Ashley Kaschl: I haven’t completely finished the article I’m going to mention, but it’s Fr. Freeman’s most recent article about the ego and how we can create a false reality about our state in life and about God, and how we fall into the danger of placing zero boundaries when it comes to our ego - we live an aimless life or a life according to “me” and we can even delude ourselves into being obedient to our idea of what we think is true or what is Godly. I think St. John is talking about something similar if we give ourselves over to despondency instead of humility and diligence.
01:04:23 Johnny Ross: Many have created God in their own image instead of the other way around
01:04:28 Deb Dayton: I think this is the article
https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/glory2godforallthings/2022/09/21/boundaries-borders-and-the-true-god/
01:07:05 Ashley Kaschl: I have to run. My service is spotty. Thanks for the great group though!
01:07:52 Marco da Vinha: A bit tangential, but the previous paragraph and comments reminded me of something the painter said in the movie "A Hidden Life". When the main character saw him painting Christ in a chapel and praised him for it, the painter's reply was very interesting - "What we do, is just create... sympathy. We create-- We create admirers. We don't create followers. Christ's life is a demand. You don't want to be reminded of it. So we don't have to see what happens to the truth. A darker time is coming... when men will be more clever. They won't fight the truth, they'll just ignore it. I paint their comfortable Christ, with a halo over his head. How can I show what I haven't lived? Someday I might have the courage to venture, not yet. Someday I'll... I'll paint the true Christ."
01:15:37 Lee Graham: Discern where others are without condemnation
01:16:27 Art: Thank you father. Good night!
01:16:28 Johnny Ross: Thank You Father
01:16:29 Jeffrey Ott: Thank you!
01:16:37 Deiren Masterson: God bless - thanks Father - all
01:16:38 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father!
01:16:39 kevin: thanks
01:16:44 Deb Dayton: Thank you so much
Saturday Sep 10, 2022
Saturday Sep 10, 2022
I’ve often thought the Desert Fathers were the first and truest of depth psychologists. Their understanding of the human person, the workings of the mind and the heart, the effects of the emotions, and the workings of the unconscious is unparalleled in anything that we have seen before or sense. Tonight Saint John Climacus, in a few paragraphs, takes us into those depths. He shows us the extent to which we can become conceited and that a false self can begin to emerge and become solidified. Out of their experience the Fathers came to know the many and varied ways that these things manifest themselves and the spiritual remedies to be applied. Disobedience, our inability to hear the truth and embrace it with love, has an impact on every area of our life and every relationship. It can lead to a kind of passive-aggressiveness that hardens the heart and makes us insensible to the needs of others or their goodness. Even Saint John says that he is amazed at the dexterity that we show in all manner of sin and the diversity of evil that flows from it.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:14:17 FrDavid Abernethy: para 81 page 88
00:14:34 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Hi What page again please
00:14:45 FrDavid Abernethy: page 88
00:14:50 FrDavid Abernethy: para 81
00:15:07 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Thank u
00:15:49 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Good to be here
00:31:39 Johnny Ross: The paradox of true freedom is that it is found in obedience and conformity to our spiritual practice as shown by Christ. True freedom is not being able to do what you want. That is the distortion of modernity.
00:35:19 Carol Nypaver: What if bearing with insults causes suspicion from one’s boss in the workplace? At what point can we defend ourselves? Doesn’t justice demand that?
00:37:37 Carol: Like a lamb led to the slaughter, he opened not his mouth
00:38:15 Jeffrey Ott: This seems to align with Evagrius’ conversations on meekness and how courage and patience work together, “the work of courage and patience is to know no fear of enemies and eagerly to endure afflictions.”
00:38:36 Ambrose Little, OP: I wonder if some of the genius is that instead of trying to tackle lust head on, it’s coming at it from a different angle--one that is less associated with bodily desire. The mental desire for respect/high opinion of yourself (pride), though, is similar in that it is also a disordered desire. So if we learn to tame pride by embracing scorn, that exercise can teach us experientially how to tame lust (or other passions).
00:40:58 Cindy Moran: I have known some who have stayed in an abusive marriage saying they a trying to grow in holiness.
00:48:16 Ambrose Little, OP: Not a few saints have embraced significant personal suffering as a way of penance. Do you think it's ever right to endure, for example, an abusive relationship as a form of penance? Or what about an abusive brother in a monastic community?
01:03:07 Johnny Ross: This ego-centric Self is an illusion used by the prince of this world to control us. What about the tension between love thy neighbor as thyself and pick up thy cross and deny thyself. What is this self referred to here?
01:10:26 Ambrose Little, OP: like a small child..
01:15:45 Lee Graham: What is my motive for doing something a certain way? Seek Pure motives as well as purity of heart.
01:18:29 Bonnie Lewis: Father, I'm afraid you cut out. I didn't hear what you just announced.
01:18:37 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: 🙏🏼
01:18:43 Eric Ewanco: yes
01:18:57 Eric Ewanco: (no group next week)
01:18:59 Bonnie Lewis: OK- thank you.
01:19:08 Jeffrey Ott: thank you!
01:19:12 Johnny Ross: Thank you Father, sending prayers
01:19:20 Carol Nypaver: Thank you so much!
01:19:27 Rafael Patrignani: thank you Fr David!
01:19:31 Art: Thank you Father. Good night
01:19:32 mark cummings: Thank you!!!
01:20:09 Cindy Moran: Excellent session! Thank you Father! Weill be praying for your event.
01:20:18 Deiren Masterson: Thank you Father
01:20:20 Ashley Kaschl: Thank you!!
01:20:21 Bonnie Lewis: Amen. Thank you Father.
01:20:27 Ambrose Little, OP: really liked that flame wax paragraph. great analogy.
Wednesday Aug 31, 2022
Wednesday Aug 31, 2022
As we allow ourselves to be drawn deeper into the meaning of obedience by St. John’s writing, we begin to see the beauty of the virtue itself and the fruit that it produces within the soul. It is not a slavishness or weakness of will, but rather a soul that has been awakened to the lack of freedom that comes from self-judgment and that is limited or obscured by sin. The more that the heart is purified by grace and the ascetic life, the more we begin to long for obedience because it is an imitation of our Lord. It is His obedience that has led us all to the freedom of life and love in God. We become the greatest confessors of the faith when we conform ourselves to Him in this fashion. A true spiritual father, then, is going to guide their spiritual children along this path that treasures humility, stillness, silence and unceasing prayer.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:03:59 FrDavid Abernethy: page 87
00:04:12 FrDavid Abernethy: paragraph 72
00:19:17 Anthony: Thus, we have Vladika David ;)
00:29:25 Anthony: This humility is different than the idea that man is totally depraved but God declares us just. That religious idea can/does lead to self-loathing. The hopefulness is in the infusion of Grace and Love which God gives us very wounded people. That is a happy hope in contrast to our weakness and realization of our darkness outside of being attached to the Vine.
00:40:31 Anthony: There is a Bulgarian Orthodox Skete in Palmyra, VA near Charlottesville.
00:47:21 Rachel: They may, by this silence, learn to worship God in the moment. Standing silent before the other and suspending judgment..
00:47:59 Eric Ewanco: how is silence concretely rooted in gentleness and love?
00:48:04 Rachel: May be a way to practice faith and wait patiently for God to reveal Himself
00:51:11 Rachel: I don't think it means that we wont meet with situations where we find others contradicting us, or, when we are actively trying to be silent ourselves contradicting others all day long. So the silence may bring up a lot of uncomfortable contradictions where we learn by necessity, to wait patiently and rely on God in His good providence. It is not an inactive silence
00:52:02 Rachel: Its not rendering oneself dumb
00:53:13 Carol: Like the Blessed Virgin, pondering in one’s heart
00:54:23 Johnny Ross: Isn't this silence related to our Saviors Kenosis? It is an emptying of ourselves. Related also to the Via Negativa?
00:59:24 Anthony: When we are emptied, we want to be filled, to have an identity; but it
01:00:13 Anthony: it's awfully hard to follow Jesus because we can't grasp or contain Him, so we want to build ourselves into an image of what we want to be or should be.
01:01:03 Anthony: the heirs of the maccabees
01:05:52 Rachel: today
01:06:30 Rachel: in whole foods yesterday lol
01:08:28 Johnny Ross: Yes, we face a stark choice today, Either we worship God or we worship ourselves.
01:09:01 Anthony: /because prayer is work?
01:12:34 Bridget McGinley: The Bible states to Pray Always... the theme of The Way of the Pilgrim
01:14:42 Rachel: Instead of stripping oneself of everything that may stand in the way of God. Emptying our hearts can feel uncomfortable. prayer can become like building up a wall. Sort of like coming to God every time in prayer and only making small talk or talking at Him, instead of listening and silencing everything that causes anxiety. A way of controlling the conversation for fear of hearing something that is displeasing.
01:17:02 Carol Nypaver: Saint Augustine ~ “When the word of God increases, human words fail.”
01:17:50 Debra: And how can you tell the difference?
01:18:11 Debra: Between desolation, or being drawn deeper?
01:19:46 Debra: Good points...linger in those moments...see where God is taking us
01:20:39 Rachel: I think St Sophrony and St Silouan speak of this. I wonder is there always a correlation between desolation and being drawn deeper? Almost like suddenly becoming aware in a deeper sense that in ourselves, we lack the capacity to run to Him. To feel His presence
01:21:13 Rachel: So we wait, and stay with Him. St Therese speaks of this too
01:22:33 Anthony: That is what Purgatory is, per Dante.
01:23:01 Anthony: a longing to be free, repaired and pure for love.
01:24:21 Johnny Ross: Thank You Father
01:24:33 Rachel: Thank you Father Thank you evryone
01:24:35 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father!!!
01:24:36 Rachel: lol yes
Wednesday Aug 24, 2022
Wednesday Aug 24, 2022
Tonight we continued with our study of Step 4 on Obedience. As we go deeper into St. John’s writing we begin to see the fruit of this virtue that often remains hidden to our eyes. Our obedience fosters habit; in particular the habit of virtue where one acknowledges that God is a fellow laborer. Obedience also shapes the way that we approach the confession of our sins. It allows us to see their gravity, and it fosters within us the deepest sense of compunction. The fruit of this, however, is a repentance the draws us back into the arms of God swiftly and allows us to experience His healing grace. The great virtue also makes us cherish the gift of the Holy Eucharist more fully. We begin to understand how precious this gift is and so desire to protect our minds and our hearts from the greater attacks that often come after receiving our Lord. It also allows us to see that we do not engage in this battle in isolation but rather we march with the first martyr, that is Christ. Through obedience we always have the Divine Physician with us. If we do fall we are immediately aided and healed by his presence. For this reason we must also choose well a competent spiritual physician, an elder who himself has been formed and shaped by this great virtue. For St. John tells us that obedience brings humility and out of this humility is born dispassion. The more that we walk along this path the more we begin to experience the angelic life; that is, we begin to experience the very peace and the joy of the kingdom, God draws us into the very perfection of His Love.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:09:42 FrDavid Abernethy: page 86, para 63
00:14:35 CMoran: I work at WQED so maybe I can run across 5th Ave. for liturgy.
00:14:49 CMoran: Cindy
00:15:46 Anthony: A lot of restraunters and homeschooling families?
00:18:07 Bonnie Lewis: Excellent!
00:20:11 Rachel: Thatsna 10 percent down payment in Cali
00:20:26 Rachel: lol
00:35:38 Marco da Vinha: Though I am a Latin, looking at Forgiveness Sunday just before Lent - the "Tithe of the Year" - brings to mind Mt 5:23-24: "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."
00:37:51 Eric Ewanco: It's easier to be humble when we are wrong, especially with those who are humble. It is much harder to be humble when we are right, dealing with those who are prideful and arrogant!
00:46:54 Kevin Clay: What does John mean by the last part: “For it is better to war with pollutions (thoughts) than with conceit.”
00:47:10 Bridget McGinley: What might those additional "spiritual sacrifices" look like after confession?
00:48:25 Rachel: Pride versus thoughts of various kinds that show the wounds of our disloyalty. ride may be more difficult and subtle?
00:49:05 Br Theophan the non-recluse: @kevin if one presumes that they have truly won the spiritual battle, then they fall prey to the sin of conceit, which is worst being engaged in a spiritual battle, as one is then too spiritually blind to see their sinful state
00:49:09 Rachel: Pride* o dear sorry for the typos
00:50:08 Rachel: ty Brother Theophan
00:52:45 Carol: Theophan said something similar about the time immediately after Communion, to seek solitude and privacy in one’s room to deepen the intimacy of prayer
00:53:48 Eric Ewanco: I believe, Lord, and profess that You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God, come to this world to save sinners, of whom I am the greatest. I believe also that this is really your spotless body and that this is really your precious blood. Wherefore I pray to You: have mercy on me and pardon my offenses, the deliberate and the indeliberate, those committed in word and in deed whether knowingly or inadvertently; and count me worthy to share without condemnation your spotless mysteries, for the remission of sins and for eternal life.
Receive me now, O Son of God, as a participant in your mystical supper: for I will not betray your mystery to your enemies, nor give You a kiss like Judas, but like the thief, I confess You: remember me, Lord, in your kingdom.
00:54:06 Marco da Vinha: Father, a bit of a digression, but do you have any idea of when penances to combat the passions stopped being the norm in the West? My own experience in the confessional has always been "pray X/Y/Z" and never any concrete actions to combat the vices I struggle with. And yet I read recently a saintly 16th century Dominican archbishop advising his priests to give penances according the the sins confessed: fasting for sins of gluttony/lust; almsgiving for avarice; prayer for sloth/acedia...
00:55:00 Eric Ewanco: "May the reception of your holy mysteries, Lord, be for me not to judgment or condemnation, but to the healing of (my) soul and body. Amen."
01:00:05 Henry Peresie: St. John Vianney was one of those priests who spent many hours in the confessional.
01:04:49 Eric Ewanco: I thought "hesychasm" arose a few centuries after John?
01:08:28 Anthony: As David said, something like even his bones groaned.
01:18:08 Rachel: This reminds me of the rich young man who encountered Our Lord Himself and went away sad, not willing to give up his attachments. How he followed all of the commandments in obedience..
01:18:38 Rachel: yet, God is found in His commandments. Or, hidden in His commandments.
01:19:09 Anthony: it makes sense since angels are under obedience and they are in God's happy presence.
01:20:04 Anthony: and here i thought they always were talking about not marrying. wow.
01:23:11 Rachel: The older copy's introduction is wonderful!
01:24:02 Marco da Vinha: God bless, Father!
01:24:08 CMoran: Thank you Father!!!
01:24:18 Rachel: Thank you Father and everyone
01:24:20 Bonnie Lewis: thank you again Father! Always wonderful.
Sunday Aug 21, 2022
Sunday Aug 21, 2022
Tonight we continued our reading of Step 4 on Obedience and its practice in the spiritual life. Saint John, as well as so many of the desert fathers, unearth what we typically keep hidden within our hearts. Rather than living in a spirit of obedience and allowing that obedience to bear the fruit of humility within us by setting aside our own willfulness, we cling to the illusions of self-sufficiency. Despite all that Christ has done and despite all that God has given to us, we believe that we can live with one foot in the world and one foot in the kingdom. The humility that obedience fosters teaches us that we cannot externalize or distance ourselves from the evil and the sin of the world. There is a radical solidarity between ourselves and others that demands a constant movement of our heart - repentance. Whenever we see evil or sin, our first movement must be toward God in a cry for mercy and healing. We must humbly lay bare our wound to the physician and without being ashamed say: “It is my wound, father, it is my plague, caused by my own negligence, and, not by anything else. No one is to blame for this, no man, no spirit, no body, nothing but my own carelessness.“ We must allow these words to penetrate our hearts to root out all the excuses we put forward in order to remain in a place of mediocrity.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:17:16 Anthony: Congratulations Fr David!
00:17:24 CMoran: Question: What is Prelest? I off-topic--If not appropriate, please ignore the question.
00:17:53 CMoran: Sorry..."IF"
00:17:58 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: I missed what you said Father Where are you assigned?
00:18:02 Mark Kelly: Prelest is like a spiritual illusion of ones self.
00:18:18 Edward Kleinguetl: SS Peter & Paul in Duquesne, PA
00:18:20 Eric Ewanco: Prelast is Spiritual deception, I'm sure Father can elaorate
00:21:14 Mark Kelly: Prelest, in the extreme, is seeing one’s self as a prophet or spiritual guide or some exulted person. In common terms it is something we all must deal with. Spiritually deceiving ourselves.
00:53:01 Edward Kleinguetl: A priest once told me in confession that "no reformer ever had bitterness in his heart."
00:53:33 Edward Kleinguetl: And I have to remind myself of that frequently.
00:55:35 Marco da Vinha: What you say, Father, reminds me both of St. Nektarios - who carried out penance for his seminarians faults - as well as St. Bartholomew of Braga - who, as an archbishop, would, on occasion, do penance for his priests' sins.
00:57:14 Ambrose Little, OP: There’s also the observation you (Father) have mentioned many times, which is the challenge of clinging to one's own judgment being perhaps one of the most difficult failures in humility to overcome. It’s always worth meditating on the likely possibility that our own judgment may be in error or, at the very least, that our interpretation of another's words and actions may be in error. (Not talking about glaring and established moral failures like the abuse scandals, but the more common criticisms that this or that pastor is not saying what we’d have them say.)
00:58:37 Anthony: Being one who thinks a LOT - thinking and ruminating too much is not healthy. Prayer is where the goodness and healing is (at the very least, it's an emotional outlet to get rid of the thoughts), but the devil's fog machine blinds us to its availability. My parish priest said something in a homily like: we often make our own crosses and they are too heavy; the cross God makes for us is better and easier for us.
01:02:03 Marco da Vinha: @Anthony, I think Dostoevsky put it best in Notes from the Underground when the narrator says "To think too much is a disease." I have found that to be very much the case in my own life
01:09:32 Lee Graham: We are all guilty
01:09:38 Marco da Vinha: Father, is the kind of Confession that the Fathers mention different than the sacrament of Penance as we understand it now in the West? Was this Confession that took place within the elder/disciple relationship? The Fathers tell us to reveal our inner thoughts, our inner wounds in Confession, yet we are brought up in the West with the "just state kind and number" approach to Confession. Many times we don't give the priest much context, and we receive no advice either about our vices, even when the same priest here's our confessions on a regular basis.
01:10:09 Babington (or Babi): It and your comments are very helpful. Thank you.
01:16:00 Bridget McGinley: Father can the evil one enter the confessional and disturb either the priest or the penitent during the confession?
01:19:34 CMoran: Thank you Father! And thank you everyone!
01:19:43 Marco da Vinha: Thank you Father! Goodnight!
01:20:37 Deiren Masterson: Thank you Father! Such a grace!
Wednesday Aug 10, 2022
Wednesday Aug 10, 2022
We continued our reading of Step 4 from the Ladder of Divine Ascent on Obedience and the spirit with which it is practiced. What one begins to see in the writings of the Fathers is that obedience is not slavishness that destroys the personality or the will of the other. It arises out of a relationship; first and foremost the relationship between the Father and the Son that brought about our salvation; wherein Christ through the Spirit of love became obedient even unto death on the cross. Obedience within this world and obedience to one’s spiritual father is rooted in a similar relationship of mutual love. Spiritual father and son must be well disposed to each other in order that what is given and what is received is done so in love. Only then will bear fruit and only then will it bring a kind of invincible joy. To live in obedience is to find freedom; freedom from fear and anxiety, freedom from the darkness that sin brings to us. Through obedience we always have someone to guide us back to the narrow way, one who shows us the light that allows us to move forward. Let us pray through Saint John Climacus that God would cultivate this great virtue within our hearts.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:07:47 FrDavid Abernethy: page 83, para 45
00:28:54 Daniel Allen: The blog “Glory to God for all things” had a great article on this titled “saving knowledge and blessed ignorance”. What we don’t know can be more important than what we know, and what we know is much less than we like to think.
00:31:02 Anthony: On one hand, I think he's right. On the other hand, does one have a responsibility to try and share specialized knowledge for guidance to a perceived good or guidance away from a bad thing - but with discretion in how you propose the idea?
00:41:54 Rachel: That is extremely rare but so very beautiful.
00:47:26 Bridget McGinley: How does one reconcile in practice the advice in the Psalms and other Biblical verses like “ It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” with the virtue of obedience and trust in a confessor/elder? Especially if there have been grave misunderstandings in the past.
00:56:52 Daniel Allen: St. Ambrose to St. Monica: ““God’s time will come,” the bishop reassured her, but she was so persistent he finally urged, “Go now, I beg you. It is not possible that the son of so many tears should perish.””
00:57:49 Debra: ❤️
01:04:25 Rachel: lol
01:08:31 Ambrose Little: depends on who the sub is
01:08:41 Debra: 😁
01:11:38 Ren Witter: This is so true! Even in my dreams, I find myself asking: what would my spiritual father think of this or that behavior? It becomes such a deeply established way of thinking. Its really beautiful, and a blessing. Another reason that the habit of exposing one's thoughts to a Father is so good - knowing that you will tell him everything, you become more careful with what you allow yourself to do. Such wise advice
01:13:23 Debra: So my biggest take away is of spiritual maturity...but does that maturity come *from* obedience; or does the obedience need to come first to gain that spiritual maturity
Like the monk that was willing to accept years of penance...that would take spiritual maturity...but if he had that, he wouldn't have needed the penance...or am I missing something?
01:13:58 Debra: Yes, exactly
01:14:00 Debra: lol
01:14:42 Ambrose Little: Wise words from Bob: "baby steps"
01:16:18 Debra: Thank you that's a deeper take away
01:18:25 Babington (or Babi): Hope to contribute someday. Thank you very much. God bless you all. 🙏🏼🤍
01:20:29 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you so much for all that you do Ren!
01:21:07 Ambrose Little: the "non-recluse” lol that's awesome
01:21:19 Ren Witter: Yes!! I just saw that. Hahah. Amazing
01:21:38 Br Theophan the non-recluse: It’s been the most consistent joke since my investiture last weekend🤣
01:22:09 Carol Nypaver: Hooray!
01:22:31 Sheila Applegate: Congratulations!
01:22:46 Rachel: Bro Theophan is in Cali? Yay =)
01:23:21 Br Theophan the non-recluse: 2.5 hours north of San Fran!
01:23:23 CMoran: Thank you Father!
01:23:27 Rachel: Thank you!
01:23:30 Debra: Thank you!
01:23:31 Rachel: Sacramento here
01:23:33 Ashley Kaschl: Thank you, Father!
01:23:39 Bonnie Lewis: Bye all!
01:23:41 Rachel: Goodnoght Father!
Wednesday Aug 03, 2022
Wednesday Aug 03, 2022
Reading the Fathers takes us to the very heart of the gospel and in doing so they pull us out of our comfort zone. Obedience is the true path to freedom. But freedom comes at a cost and perfect freedom comes through self-sacrificing love. It is cruciform. All that we were presented with this evening made it very clear that our life is to be a deep immersion in the Paschal Mystery; that is, a profound dying and rising. We are dying to self and sin and rising to new life in Christ. This is the path to salvation and St. John tells us that to turned away from the obedience of Christ, to turn away from the mortification of reason, judgment and self-will, is to turn away from the Love that has saved us. Every time we receive the Holy Eucharist we say, “Amen”, so be it. We say, “Let this be the reality in my life. Let me be conformed to Christ in self- emptying and obedient love. To hold on to our will, to hold on to our self-centeredness makes it impossible for us both to receive and give love. May God open our eyes that we may see the truth of this and follow the way that Christ has set before us.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:06:40 FrDavid Abernethy: page 82 paragraph 39
00:13:01 FrDavid Abernethy: page 82
00:16:04 Fr. Miron Jr.: no
00:31:35 renwitter: I really appreciate that he mentions the manual labor even in this small paragraph about the prison. Helpful to remember that during a time of repentance - of fasting and deep prayer - the Fathers themselves recommended some kind of small work to help the heart along, and allow the stillness to come. Making prayer ropes works great too ;-)
00:32:27 Debra: And you make beautiful prayer ropes
Wednesday Jul 27, 2022
Wednesday Jul 27, 2022
Such a beautiful image is presented to us of the life obedience in a few paragraphs. St. John finds himself wrapped in conversation with one of the elderly fathers. He is asked if he has embraced the life that God has made possible for him. The Holy Spirit has descended upon him with the dew of purity, not unlike that of the blessed Virgin Mary, and the Most High has overshadowed him with patience, the very patience of Christ.
This is the grace that has been given to us all. Thus St. John is asked by the elder if his life is reflective of that reality. Has he bound himself with a towel of obedience, making himself the slave and the servant of the members of his community, willing to embrace every self- abasement? Does he guard his heart strictly and restrain the mind through the ascetical life and by humbling the body? In the midst of all of his work does he maintain stillness of heart? Does he curb his tongue that rages to leap into arguments and unceasingly wrestle with this tyrant? Does he fix his mind to the image of obedience and humility on the Cross, allowing it to shape how he embraces mockery, abuse, and ridicule? Has he cast off his will as though it is a garment of shame? Does he still his mind or let it become overly busy with the concerns of the things of the world? Is he willing to drink derision at every hour in order to protect charity? Is it more valuable for him to preserve love and unity with his brothers than it is to be treated with respect and kindness? Saint John is moved by the old monks exhortation and so gives true honor to blessed obedience.
Do we in our day-to-day life experience the fruit of true obedience, especially when it comes to our worship of God? Are we able to collect all of our thoughts and desires, every movement of the mind and the soul and summon them to cry out to God “O come, let us worship and fall down before Christ, our king and our God.”True obedience leads to true freedom. It gives us the capacity to love and give ourselves in love without impediment.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:12:01 FrDavid Abernethy: page 79: “Again about the steward”
00:14:16 Bonnie Lewis: Hi Father! It’s still in the 100’s in San Antonio
00:18:48 Mark Cummings: Is that a kalimavkion?
00:26:16 Rachel: LOL!!
00:37:36 Anthony: So does "I think therefore I am" actually open us up to a world of hurt, drowning in speculation and fanciful thoughts, making us prey to demons if we take it as a life or cultural motto?
00:48:06 Rachel: Can you speak about applying this teaching where one's work environment, and the people one works with do not share the same goal or, at least do not act like it? I am thinking of a situation like Blessed Paul Parazzo.
00:48:25 Bridget McGinley: Oh that is a hard saying "curb your tongue" when you work predominately with females. True sacrifice to hold the tongue and not let one's face show emotion.
00:48:41 Rachel: yes!
00:50:49 Rachel: will send a good link
00:51:05 Liz: Sorry, which movie?
00:51:17 iPad (10)maureen: Man Of God
00:51:18 Carol Nypaver: Man of God
00:51:23 Kevin Clay: https://vimeo.com/675624334
00:51:28 Liz: Thank you : )!
00:51:41 iPad (10)maureen: Good luck finding a movie
00:51:49 Kevin Clay: That link is the full movie on Vimeo
00:52:12 Kevin Clay: Free
00:52:18 Edward Kleinguetl: Almost every platform and the DVD is also available.
00:52:22 Liz: Oh wow, great!
00:52:42 Edward Kleinguetl: The icon behind me is St. Nektarios of Aegina.
00:53:32 Rachel: https://youtu.be/1Y9bro7fmyU
00:55:11 Liz: Thanks for sharing!
01:07:22 Bridget McGinley: I am reading the Rule of the Benedictine Oblate. So many of these rules are discussed and explained in there also. It is so beautiful how caring all the disciplines were. There is such a profound love behind them when one knows the theology behind it.
01:10:42 Rachel: St Seraphim of Serov!?
01:12:13 Art: It was in the article:
https://pemptousia.com/2016/06/prayer-for-beginners/
01:15:19 Anthony: His words are literally part of the Trisagion prayer prior to Liturgy. I wonder if the call to bow before Christ our King and God was incorporated because of the importance of this book in spirituality.
01:17:41 Sr Barbara Jean Mihalchick: Most folks pray like Puritans - no movement ever~!
01:18:34 Rachel: Thank you Father
01:18:40 CMoran: Thank you so much, Father!
Wednesday Jul 20, 2022
Wednesday Jul 20, 2022
We continued our discussion of Step 4 on Obedience. As deeply challenging as St John’s teachings are and as jarring as the examples of monks being tested can be, a light begins to shine through to the dark places of our minds that resist allowing ourselves to be conformed to the obedience of Christ.
Obedience as well as Love is cruciform. It involves a dying to self, self-will, and vanity in order that true meekness, love, and freedom might emerge.
The trials that the monks endured were not something meant to break down their personality or to crush them and throw them into despair. Rather, their shepherd, in imitation of Christ, sought only to purify their hearts and perfect their virtue. They entered into the monastic life with a clear understanding of its asceticism. It is distinctively Christian. All that they do, every aspect of their life is meant to direct them to Christ and conform them to His image; to let His love bloom within their hearts.
It turns out that the truest and straightest path to freedom is obedience. Our confidence in this reality comes not from our own understanding but from what we see in Christ himself. By being obedient to His Father in love salvation comes to the world.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:08:31 FrDavid Abernethy: page 76 para 27
00:09:45 FrDavid Abernethy: about time
00:29:32 Carol: do you see any parallels to this outside of the monastery?
00:35:44 Anthony: Religious persons with office of shepherd who act unjustly, without really caring for souls but being subject to vices, spreads poison to anyone who experienced them, damaging trust for the person to offer in future. Willingness to obey must then carefully be built up - by the person whose trust was damaged.
00:36:25 Art: Just a comment: This calls to mind the soldier attached to country, Corps, comrades, who is prepared to accomplish the mission, even a suicide mission, at the price of his blood. Death before dishonor is a common saying.
00:38:21 Anthony: of compegne
00:44:11 Ren: This teaching is initially very difficult to handle - that is, the idea of someone who is good and fruitful being dishonored for the sake of virtue and, ultimately, for the sake of Christ. However, I believe this is similiar to what you often say about asceticism (how it is accepted in every area of life but the spiritual): Purification by dishonor/humbling is something we accept when it comes to sports, the military, education, elite level performance/fine arts, etc… and in these areas we accept that the dishonor shown to the aspirant is given in order to refine, test, and perfect their dedication and love. The exact same thing is happening here, as Climacus says “A soul attached to the shepherd with love and faith for Christ’s sake.” In the end, that is the only goal of the monk - union with Christ.
00:53:14 Carol: Hebrews 12:6 And this all speaks to the love and providence of God, and the way we are called to respond to suffering.
00:54:40 Ashley Kaschl: I agree with Father. I think we cheapen something when we make it easy to obtain. Two quotes come to mind:
“Do not claim to have acquired virtue unless you have suffered affliction, for without affliction virtue has not been tested.” -St. Mark the Ascetic
“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty. I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.” -Teddy Roosevelt
00:56:13 Debra: Thanks for sharing those, Ashley
01:00:57 Babington (or Babi): I haven’t understood the issue with that part of the Lord’s Prayer since Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness where He was then tempted, obviously with His Father’s permission, before beginning His public ministry.
01:09:16 Anthony: I just saw a short video of former Mike Tyson telling two young men that the 3 years he spent in prison were the best of his life, because he was given deep peace. One young man challenged him how could this be, when there was a time Tyson earned millions for one fight. Tyson replied that God may give us what we ask for to show us we can't handle what we want. And the Tyson in this video was calm and peaceful, unlike his life as a star, really sounding like a Christian.
01:09:36 Anthony: former boxer - sorry
01:10:57 Ren: “Bless you prison, bless you for being in my life. For there, lying upon the rotting prison straw, I came to realize that the object of life is not prosperity as we are made to believe, but the maturity of the human soul.”
01:11:55 Anthony: Don King?
01:12:32 Ren: The full quote is extraordinary. Something to frame.
01:13:36 Sheila Applegate: This ----> Tyson replied that God may give us what we ask for to show us we can't handle what we want.
01:16:08 Ren: It was granted to me to carry away from my prison years on my bent back, which nearly broke beneath its load, this essential experience: how a human being becomes evil and how good. In the intoxication of youthful successes I had felt myself to be infallible, and I was therefore cruel.
In the surfeit of power I was a murderer and an oppressor.
In my most evil moments I was convinced that I was doing good, and I was well supplied with systematic arguments. It was only when I lay there on rotting prison straw that I sensed within myself the first stirrings of good. Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either—but right through every human heart—and through all human hearts. . . .
That is why I turn back to the years of my imprisonment and say, sometimes to the astonishment of those about me: “Bless you, prison!”
I . . . have served enough time there. I nourished my soul there, and I say without hesitation: “Bless you, prison, for having been in my life!”
—Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
01:17:17 Babington (or Babi): Thank you!
01:17:26 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father for this important session.
Wednesday Jul 13, 2022
Wednesday Jul 13, 2022
Tonight we continued with St. John’s Step on Obedience. We are presented with an image that may be unfamiliar to us. Obedience is not presented as something that is crushing to the human spirit. It can be humiliating - in the sense that it seems to drive out from the soul and the heart all vestige of arrogance, fierceness, and hostility towards others. Yet, what emerges from this exercise of faith is conformity to Christ. When it is rooted in a true love for one’s shepherd, one’s Elder, then a kind of voluntary innocence begins to emerge; a childlike trust in the Elder that prevents a person from speculating about his motives or thinking that he is being driven by xmalice.
When we know that we are being guided by love then we are able to embrace even the most challenging of things. Obedience becomes are very food; something nourishing as it was for Christ himself. When perfected, it can bring about not only personal transformation but the transformation of every relationship that exists within our lives. When we let go of all machinations and all forms of calculation and seek simply to love and give ourselves in love - peace and freedom emerge. We should speak of obedience as something that ultimately brings joy. Indeed, we should see all the virtues as doing exactly that – bringing us into the joy of the kingdom.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:10:10 Art: In case anyone is interested.
00:10:16 Art: Upcoming online course:
THE WAY OF THE PILGRIM: Entering Into the Jesus Prayer
Instructor: Very Rev. Stephen Freeman
Event Description
"Pray without ceasing." —1 Thessalonians 5:17
What is prayer, and how does one learn how to pray? In this talk, journey with Fr. Stephen Freeman and a pilgrim in 19th-century Russia to explore the meaning of prayer in our lives.
Event Details
https://instituteofcatholicculture.org/events/the-way-of-the-pilgrim
Tuesday, August 23
Pre-Class Discussion: 7:30 PM EST
Lecture: 8:00 PM EST
Registration is required
00:12:03 Fr. Miron Jr.: yep!
00:12:44 FrDavid Abernethy: page 73, para 20
00:31:49 maureencunningham: The task was a lie or was he and Epicepic ?
00:39:55 Anthony: Vocation is seen as a job, matching personal characteristics to charisms of a community of the need to have clergy and religious
00:45:46 Debra: Would he have been allowed to receive Eucharist...attend Mass?
00:46:21 Bridget McGinley: The journey of the spiritual life in such a short paragraph. Beautifully spoken and written. We go through the same journey over a lifetime.
00:47:24 Bridget McGinley: It is easy to see that God should reward us for the little we do instead of being humble and low at the gift.
00:49:33 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father. That was going to be my question, that he would be filled with sadness. And yet, his life ended in a joyful death.
00:55:19 Anthony: Is this simple character the "Holy Fool"? Or is that something else?
00:57:24 Ambrose Little, OP: Can you elaborate on "voluntary innocence” in this context?
01:02:20 Ambrose Little, OP: Maybe also it is "take no thought for tomorrow, what you shall eat, or what you shall wear.." That is also a kind of. innocence--simply trusting that God will provide.
01:03:01 Liz: In some Communities, were the Superior (or other brothers) does similar or more humilliating actions out of truly malice, can it also be taken as an instructive tool by the one who is suffering it unjustly, just out of the evil will of another one? Maybe this is also related with the voluntary innocence, without second-guessings. Can this be applied in the secular life? To which extent can we distinguish it from the line of the "human dignity"?....
01:03:33 Carol: "real joy, which is paradisal innocence and attachment to God through the whole splendor of being alive." Olivier clement
01:08:33 Anthony: The monastic literature refers to beginning in community life before solitary life as the best way to live. Natural law leads to the valuable community of family life. In our day, there are so many single people, by choice or by circumstance, from age 18 or sadly even earlier. Our age appears to be an aberration. Do you have spiritual advice for so many solitaries thrust into solitary life, a period of being neither monastic nor familial?
01:14:44 maureencunningham: Thank You
01:15:36 carolnypaver: Song of Tears?
01:16:57 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father! Great session!!
01:17:04 Liz: Thank you Father!
Wednesday Jul 06, 2022
Wednesday Jul 06, 2022
We picked up this evening once again with Step 4 on Obedience. John describes it for us as standing before God with a kind of simplicity and humility; truthful living before God and others. When we live in this manner we unburden ourselves and so run a good race without a heavy conscience and also protected from the cunning of the demons who make exacting investigation of our deeds.
After describing obedience and defining it, John then turns to give us beautiful examples of those who lived it in an heroic fashion. In particular, we are told of a thief who seeks admittance to a monastery. Gradually the superior test his obedience through the confession of his sins privately and publicly. The thief does this with profound humility and obedience that is shocking even to Saint John. It is then that he is received into the monastery and given the habit. He overcame the shame of his sin through the shame of bringing all things to light.
St. John goes on to describe the fruit that this bore within the community. They were so formed by the spirit of obedience through their skillful superior and physician of souls, that they began to live the angelic life. Their love and generosity towards each other was unparalleled. They would seek to protect each other’s consciences and also to take each other’s burdens upon themselves.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:07:36 FrDavid Abernethy: starting tonight on page 70, paragraph 9
00:41:45 renwitter: Without this type of public, and total confession, is there any way to attain to a similar level of freedom? I feel like so many carry certain sins as secrets from all but their confessor, and maybe spouse.
00:44:14 Fr. Miron Jr.: 1st sunday of Great Lent
00:55:47 renwitter: This also perfectly compliments what we discussed in the Evergetinos on Monday - the simple, very easy way that idle conversation becomes evil conversation, and thus something that needs to be avoided even in the very beginning when it seems really harmless. There is nothing harmless about what is idle.
01:03:28 Ashley Kaschl: It’s not hard since a lot of things die in this heat 😂
01:04:17 Barb Heyrman: I am reminded of a homily on one very hot & humid Sunday. “If you think this is hot…try bell.”
01:07:59 renwitter: I am reminded of my favorite quote from an old cartoon (the context is the Dad of the family dropping his son off for Sunday school). Son: “But Dad, Sunday school is so not cool." Dad: “You know what's not cool Bobby? Hell.”
01:08:32 Ashley Kaschl: 😂😂
01:16:15 Ashley Kaschl: I was on the go earlier, so you don’t have to respond to this, Father.
But the public confession of past wrongs in the earlier paragraphs reminds me of the General Judgment.
01:16:19 Ashley Kaschl: And in contemplating that, at first, there’s a real, gripping fear that all will be made clear, nothing will be hidden. Since sin is an absence, an act contrary to reality, that wounds both us and the Body, this type of confession, which we will all endure in the end, can’t NOT be healing and ultimately freeing.
But then, in understanding the sacramental life, Who and where I’m made for, and if one has a penitential disposition, it’s less about standing in shame or fear, and more like we would stand before everyone with a deep recognition, humility, and admission for having been who we are not and did not want to be.
01:21:14 Rachel Pineda: Thank you!
01:21:16 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!
01:21:36 Bonnie Lewis: A blessed birthday to you !
01:21:40 Maple(Hannah) Hong: Thankk you
01:21:43 Rachel Pineda: Happy Birthday! LOL 60
01:21:45 Sheila Applegate: Happy Birthday!
01:22:00 carolnypaver: Birthday Blessings!
01:22:02 kevin: happy Birthday
01:22:05 Maple(Hannah) Hong: Happy Birthday!
01:22:10 Rachel Pineda: The kids still think you are ancient but look young. God bless! Happy Birthday!
Thursday Jun 30, 2022
Thursday Jun 30, 2022
This evening we picked up with Step 4 on Obedience. Saint John puts it before us in an unvarnished fashion. It is hard work. It offers us great freedom; freedom from all of our concerns about the things of the world, daily circumstances, or what others do or say to us. Yet, it is a rough way because it means letting go of our own will, self-judgment and opinion. We freely give these things over to another who becomes our “helmsman”. The helmsman becomes our “nous” - the eye of the heart - while we lack that purity of heart.
One does not choose to live in obedience indiscriminately, Saint John tells us. Rather, we must make sure that we embrace obedience and give our judgment over to one who can truly guide us along the path that leads to the kingdom. Otherwise, Saint John tells us, we should get no profit from our subjection. For this reason we must write the good deeds of our elder on our hearts and constantly remember them. For once we have chosen to live in obedience, either under an elder or within our particular vocation in life and to our particular vows, we are inevitably going to be attacked by the evil one who desires to make us distrust our elder.
Obedience is of the greatest value because in humbling the mind in the body it frees us from all the things that stir the passions within us. Obedience is not meant to be a form of oppression or of infantilizing others. An elder is to embrace his disciple with the greatest love and desire for his well-being. For in the end he will be held responsible for the one God has placed in his care.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:11:14 FrDavid Abernethy: page 69 n.4
00:11:19 FrDavid Abernethy: On obedience
00:17:13 Fr. Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: I’m young!
00:29:29 Anthony: For what it's worth, here are attorney saints: Augustine, Fidelis Sigmaringen, Thomas More, Aloysius Gonzaga. The only one I think who was led to the spiritual life without trauma was Fidelis of Sigmaringen. There have to be more attorney-saints.
00:30:38 Anthony: Well, St. Thomas More began well but was rarified through trauma
00:40:22 Ambrose Little, OP: sometimes you do. 😄
00:44:54 Anthony: St Seraphim of Sarov: "Headache may be caused by agitated and excessively forced mental activity." Last sentence of Spiritual Instruction #15. Maybe obedience helps us avoid overthinking.
00:49:14 M C: I have found it difficult to find an orthodox spiritual director.
00:53:35 Ambrose Little, OP: Would you think that this guidance applies to, e.g., our bishop and/or the Holy Father? The CCC says we owe religious submission of intellect and will. Makes me wonder about what's going on in the Church these days.
00:58:19 Ambrose Little, OP: Definitely recommend reading the Holy Father's letter on the liturgy published today. Very powerful stuff. (Sorry, gotta run to pick up the younguns. God bless, y'all.)
00:58:59 Art: Desidero Desideravi
01:02:33 Anthony: Book recommendation: "Papacy and Revolution" by EEY Hales. It was the "conservative" (but really liberal because they were so headstrong?) Jansenists who unwittingly had a seminal role in bringing about the French Revolution.
01:04:39 Anthony: i.e. Oliver Cromwell in England
01:13:00 Sam Rodriguez : My first exposure of that teaching “put no trust in yourself” was the Spiritual Combat by Scupoli. Is a core tenet of his, from the earliest pages, if I remember correctly
01:15:46 M C: Thank you!
01:15:53 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father!
01:16:06 Maple(Hannah) Hong: Thank you!
Wednesday Jun 22, 2022
Wednesday Jun 22, 2022
We returned this evening to Step 3 on Exile. St. John concludes by simply telling us that exile - simplifying one’s life - creates a stable character. This is a precious gift and so we must guard our minds and our hearts so that we do not corrupt ourselves by entering once again into what is worldly and disorderly. Saint John concludes Step 3 by taking a moment to speak to us about dreams. A dream involves the minds activity when the body is asleep. The mind, as we know, can be very active; often swept along by the things of day-to-day life or by what rest deep within the unconscious. Saint John warns us that the demons can use our dreams by playing the role of prophet. They convince us that our dreams have deep meaning, they tell us something important about the future, or tell us what is happening in a loved one’s life. Demons can transform themselves into angels of light and lead us into a kind of unholy joy and conceit over what is revealed within our dreams. We can find the demons making sport of us when we so much credence to their interpretation. Therefore, we should distrust our dreams; knowing that like the fantasies in our waking hours they can be used against us in dangerous ways.
We then turned to Step 4 on Obedience. Saint John begins to emphasize its importance for us in the spiritual battle. We are to seek this as one of our most important weapons because it conforms us in a special way to Christ - whose food was to do the will of His heavenly Father. An obedient soul listens deeply to what God and one’s superior is telling him. Obedience protects us from the delusion of our own judgment, opinions and reasons. We do not see all ends and the fact that we ignore this does not go unnoticed by the evil one.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:11:12 FrDavid Abernethy: page 66 paragraph 24
00:28:36 Lee Graham: Entertaining our thoughts while awake
00:34:29 Iwona Bednarz-Major: Aquinas says that our imagination can be seen by demons (and good angels, as originally they are both superb intellectual beings), since they are formed in our intelligence. Is that where the spiritual warfare takes place in dreams (logismoi)?
00:39:26 Ryan Schaefer: At Franciscan U a lot of students supposedly had visions. Some students seemed very proud of the fact that they’ve seen angels, seen the future, etc… always seemed like a red flag to me
00:43:56 Bridget McGinley: Little nervous, I don't dream ( at least I don't remember). My soul!?!?
00:46:50 Cindy Moran: ]
00:49:09 Ryan Schaefer: The TORs at Franciscan always told us that we would receive consolations if we are following Gods will. Often they said if we are not following God then we would NOT receive a “spirit of peace”. Is this incorrect? How does this relate to para. 29
00:52:05 Rachel: Everytime I've read this, it has confused me a bit. Since it can be dangerous to speak about the interior life on account of the demons who will try to trick us at every moment, how are we supposed to approach confession and the revealing of thoughts to one's confessor or spiritual director? Even here it seems to me one has to be very discerning and careful.
00:52:10 Rachel: LOL
00:56:29 Ambrose Little, OP: well!
00:56:56 Rachel: Okay, ! That was what I was going to ask about the grace of the Sacrament. But we went on to dreams etc. :) I think when I first became Catholic this witnessing was something that made me pause. Wow, thank you
00:57:04 Iwona Bednarz-Major: Fr. David, continuing my previous thought, I was always thinking that demons can only have an insight into our inner life based on our behavior but lately I've read Aquinas: Summa, First Part, Question 111. The action of the angels on man
Article 3. Whether an angel can change man's imagination? with hims stating: “I answer that, Both a good and a bad angel by their own natural power can move the human imagination. " and then explaining further that thought: “An angel changes the imagination, not indeed by the impression of an imaginative form in no way previously received from the senses”, I was perplexed. If you would have any insight on that from your perspective in the future, that would be great. Thank you.
00:58:57 Rachel: Oh, I missed this week's class. 🙃
00:59:47 sue and mark: ok, thank you..
01:02:43 Iwona Bednarz-Major: thank you
01:18:02 Lee Graham: I totally agree with you
01:20:45 Anthony: Obedience has a very important role in daily work. As craftsman is obedient to the methods of the trade and masters; a government worker is obedient to the law's "you shall" in regard to enforcement - especially when he does not want to enforce the law; a day laborer is obedient to the payor. Obedience is especially essential in a medieval guild system. All life is master-apprentice.
01:22:44 Anthony: mass commodity is modern edicatin
01:22:49 Anthony: education
01:22:59 Ashley Kaschl: Sorry I didn’t type fast enough before but I wanted to touch on what you were saying a paragraph ago about obedience and humility.
I think you’ve said before that at the heart of the word ‘Obedience’ is the meaning ‘to hear’, and that humility, being tied to obedience, is prone to silence.
I was thinking about something I heard a couple years back from my pastor that the word Silent, is comprised of the same letters which spell the words Listen and Enlist. So it just brought to mind that in humble silence of our prayer we listen (obedience) for His voice so that He can enlist us in the particular task He has set before us, that we might be caught up in God’s purpose.
01:23:54 Carol Nypaver: Wow!
01:27:15 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father...so wonderful to be here!
01:27:17 Sheila Applegate: Thanks again, Father.
01:27:20 Ryan Schaefer: God bless you father thank you!
01:27:21 Art: Thank you Father. Goodnight all.
01:27:21 Miron Kerul Kmec: Thank you
Thursday Jun 16, 2022
Thursday Jun 16, 2022
We continued our reading of step three on Exile. As with so many things said within the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the words of Saint John are jarring. It is not because John seeks to be abrasive or provocative; rather he is presenting us with the Gospel through the lens of the monastic vocation. It is God who embraced exile in the greatest sense through the incarnation. Christ, out of love for the Father and His will and out of love for us, exiles himself into the depths of humanity and of our sin in order to raise us to new life. Our exile is simply a response to this great gift of love and sacrifice on our behalf. We freely choose to exile ourselves from the things that pulls away from fulfilling the will of God or loving Him unconditionally not because of any hatred for the world or the things of the world. It is the desire for God that guides and shapes our ascetical life and our spiritual disciplines. Outside of the love of God they lack meaning. They are to be a response of humble gratitude for what God has given to us.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:15:53 Cindy Moran: I have no audio
00:22:06 Anthony: I think I finally get your admonishment to read things in context. He can't be talking about withdrawing from a family like St. Basil's 3 generations living in harmony family life and monastic life.
00:34:10 Rachel: Like the ghetto in Sacramento. lol
00:34:29 B K-LEB: this teaching is too hard............
00:34:35 Erick chastain: moved to texas
00:34:45 Erick chastain: God's country
00:34:45 Daniel Allen: I would add that it starts at home with the family
00:34:53 Bonnie Lewis: Wait a minute. I
00:35:06 Bonnie Lewis: I'm in Texas
00:35:12 Edward Kleinguetl: Welcome to Texas. I live in Houston, although moving to Toronto in six weeks.
00:36:04 Daniel Allen: Can’t flee to a place and expect everything to be somehow better. There isn’t a real chance to run to something if you don’t have it with you first. Like St Seraphim of Sarov, acquire the spirit of peace.
00:37:19 Erick chastain: thanks deacon Ed!
00:37:42 Erick chastain: agreed Daniel.
00:38:21 Joseph Caro: I wonder if this fleeing into the desert (in the literal, monkish, sense) is becoming increasingly next to impossible for our current western civilization without first a radical severance from cell phones, internet, Facebook, etc. And I am wondering if even the secondary more modest type of detachment can be fully done without first tempering our use of media, internet, etc.. . I don't know though, just my first impression.
00:38:21 Erick chastain: I moved to Texas to work at a catholic university and live near the daily latin mass.
00:38:59 Anthony: Joseph - so much data DOES impede contemplation.
00:39:20 B K-LEB: i agree with you Joseph the internet is an endless void
00:39:36 Edward Kleinguetl: Amen!
00:39:58 Carol Nypaver: 👍🏻 Erick and Joseph!
00:40:29 Ambrose Little, OP: The internet has so much to foster our knowledge of the faith and to connect with other faith-filled persons (like this group). It's a tool. Have to use it wisely.
00:41:28 Dayton S: 👆
00:42:08 Art: Good for you Erick. Is it Univ of Dallas?
00:43:29 Erick chastain: I moved to Texas to work at a catholic university and live near the daily latin mass. Guarding my mind and heart from secular people. Reduced temptations to anger and worldly ambition.
00:44:58 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: In our community a small group of us are living a more contemplative life. And it has been a very rocky road. We are not monastic but are called to live the life of our Blessed Mother in the Cenacle. We do 3 hours of adoration and one of them is at 12am for priest. And another sacrifice is not eating meat in the convent. Also doing the full Divine Office. Only time will tell if God will bring us vocations to live this way of life. To try and live a more contemplative life in todays world is a challenge.
00:46:30 Carol Nypaver: Thank you, Sister Mary. May your efforts bear much good fruit!
00:47:20 Ambrose Little, OP: I am reminded of Pope St. John Paul II: Be not afraid! Lead out into the deep. (Duc in altum.)
00:48:04 Anthony: Nassim Nicholas Talib, in "The Bed of Procrustes": Philosophers walk, they do not run. He is an Orthodox Christian who takes the spirit of Orthodoxy into his academic/risk analysis/economic work. He's right. God is not speaking in urgent panic. Be a "lover of wisdom." Walk, and enjoy and contemplate.
00:48:22 Ambrose Little, OP: Lead = duc
00:48:37 iPhone: Chapter 5 of the Letter of Diognetus comes to mind…. Christians are not distinguished from other men by country, language, nor by the customs which they observe. They do not inhabit cities of their own, use a particular way of speaking, nor lead a life marked out by any curiosity. The course of conduct they follow has not been devised by the speculation and deliberation of inquisitive men. The do not, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of merely human doctrines.
Instead, they inhabit both Greek and barbarian cities, however things have fallen to each of them. And it is while following the customs of the natives in clothing, food, and the rest of ordinary life that they display to us their wonderful and admittedly striking way of life.
They live in their own countries, but they do so as those who are just passing through. As citizens they participate in everything with others, yet they endure everything as if they were foreigners. Every foreign land is like their homeland to them, and every land…
00:48:42 B K-LEB: he's the one (NNT) i once quoted who said "God provides the cure then he allows the problem"
00:52:11 Ashley Kaschl: Daniel, I love that song! 🔥
00:52:22 Sheila Applegate: Great band.
00:53:12 Daniel Allen: I could listen to that album on repeat haha
01:02:41 Ren: The figure of Abraham is a beautiful fleshing out of what we spoke about a couple of groups ago: that this kind of exile is an exile TO not FROM. The figure of Joseph is one that perhaps illustrates a kind of opposite: an exile from, that God works with in order to effect good - an exile that will, in fact, lead to the slavery of the entire people of God. But Abraham embraces exile for the sake of covenant with God and is thus a far superior example.
01:04:48 Anthony: The book of Jasher has a story that Abraham was one of the few righteous worshippers of God among the people around the Tower of Babel, and God called him away.
01:08:05 Anthony: Christ's exile was also out of love.
01:09:13 Ambrose Little, OP: Gotta run. Family thing. God bless.
01:12:03 B K-LEB: love can be very selfish and manipulative st pope b16 said
01:12:23 Bonnie Lewis: This reminds me of Peter leaving the boat to follow Jesus but his attention was diverted and his faith was weakened, and he began to sink.
01:13:47 Ren: Ooo. So hard
01:16:04 Erick chastain: exile is awesome!
01:16:15 Daniel Allen: Hang in there it only gets more uncomfortable haha
01:16:55 Erick chastain: exile is awesome!
01:17:02 B K-LEB: lol
01:17:37 B K-LEB: i am projecting so much angst on fr. david while reading this, i dont want to hear it@@
01:18:05 Carol Nypaver: How do we not seem indifferent while “letting go?”
01:19:08 Lee Graham: A greater understanding of to what God is calling you
01:21:11 B K-LEB: jesus himself sweats blood
01:21:32 Erick chastain: holy suffering vs worldly suffering
01:21:57 Lee Graham: Count it all joy
01:22:14 Daniel Allen: I don’t mean to sanitize this, and I don’t think this doesn’t that, but I keep returning to letting go of our own will. The monk being called to the desert had to abandon his will for comfort, family, and familiarity. But every day we have to let go of our own will and embrace noisy kids and a lack of silence, or work that doesn’t fulfill a personal sense of gaining in what has meaning, and time for oneself. My examples obviously more align with having a lot of small children, but I think that (to me) is the letting go of the will that the monk is also doing.
01:23:42 Daniel Allen: Sorry writing stream of conscious isn’t something I’m good at haha. Glad you could make sense of that rambling paragraph
01:24:12 Cathy Murphy: That is the joy of children. You must be in the present moment and only love them
01:26:32 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!!
01:26:37 Iwona Bednarz-Major: Thanks!
01:26:37 Rachel: Thank you Father and everyone
01:26:37 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father...good night!
01:26:47 Art: Thank you father and stay cool Pittsburgh
Wednesday Jun 08, 2022
Wednesday Jun 08, 2022
We continued this week with step number 3 on Exile. Saint John takes us deeper into the mystery of what it is to live as a Christian within the world. God calls to the heart and desires that we give our love to Him as he has given his love to us. Ultimately this is the reason why the monks exiled themselves to the desert. It was not to free themselves from the company of others. Rather they separated themselves from all things in order to become inseparable from Christ. Similarly, in our day-to-day life, we exile ourselves from all those things which would cool our devotion for the Lord. We are careful not to turn back to the things that we are attached to knowing that in doing so we are likely to be drawn back to the things of the world. This exile is not hatred. It is the desire to let Christ be the one who teaches us what is good for us. We are to let the virtues, the angels and the Saints, the remembrance of death, contrition, be our family and our friends. These are the things that endure and will support us and our journey toward the kingdom.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:28:02 Rachel: Yep
00:30:37 carolnypaver: Page?
00:30:42 Anthony: carpathian plainchant
00:30:45 Ren: 64
00:30:57 carolnypaver: TY
00:32:19 Rachel: I think it is a way of protecting the other as well as one's own heart. It is not just about outright vulgar immodesty. It is about our minding our gaze. Because we long to gaze at the Face of God. To be able, please God, to see as God sees.
00:47:14 Anthony: In section 12, we are dealing with stymied vocations. In section 11, we were warned against being self-appointed saviors of the world. Maybe appointing yourself a savior of the world is like dwelling in the dumps on your sin. The gaze of the person is turned inward on "look at what I can do / look what I did" and that is harmful to the person and to the world. It is God Who _gives_ the vocation and the salvation. The goal of Christian life is a genuine blissful loss of the self-awareness as a branch loses itself in the vine? If he dwells on his fault, he is consumed with canker; if he boasts of himself, he is consumed with worthless woody growth, not fruit.
00:49:14 carolnypaver: “….delivered them up to their doom?” Please explain this part.
00:49:24 Ren: 12
00:51:44 Debra: Just going to the store in June, is indoctrination :/
00:58:17 Rachel: Yes!
00:58:31 Rachel: Go into your room and pray to God in secret..
01:00:31 Robyn Greco: Thank you Father
01:06:40 Anthony: This is why living in Catholic community is so helpful; our surrounding "culture" is directly contrary to each of the family members he raises here to our attention. Community reinforcement of Catholic themes is important.
01:16:21 Ren: Though Climacus takes things even farther by assigning familial relations even to the virtues, paragraph 15 reminds me of this writing of St. John Kronstadt: "When you are praying alone, and your spirit is dejected, and you are wearied and oppressed by your loneliness, remember then, as always, that God the Trinity looks upon you with eyes brighter than the sun; also all the angels, your own Guardian Angel, and all the Saints of God. Truly they do; for they are all one in God, and where God is, there are they also. Where the sun is, thither also are directed all its rays." No matter what one’s vocation, it seems a kind of loneliness and isolation in this world is always a part of it, for the Christian, and thus so many of the Fathers give advice seeking out the invisible, heavenly community to combat it.
01:19:36 Ashley Kaschl: I think this detachment is harder than believing that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ 😂😬
01:20:06 Ambrose Little, OP: (Sorry, took a while to write, so I got behind the current topic..)
In my Dominican circles, we often talk about evangelization. It is absolutely crucial, I think all of us can agree, but there is remarkable disagreement on the best way to go about it.
Some folks say that simply “speaking the Truth” is the decisive means to win souls. Others say simple accompaniment. Most know intuitively there is some truth in both, but I find folks keen to argue as if one way is, effectively, the only way, while the other won’t work at all—and they can get quite agitated about it. But it’s a matter of emphasis—different folks have different gifts, and more importantly, we need to be sensitive in each and every situation and listen for the Spirit’s guidance.
01:20:10 Ambrose Little, OP: Folks of “action” pay that lip service, but when pressed, they seem to think we can’t “just” do that. It can’t be “that simple”; they get antsy. Prayer just “isn’t enough.” But I return to the Old Testament—Israel often being a superb type of the individual faith journey. *Every time* Israel (and/or some leader) tried to go on their own, doing what seemed right and wise to them—even with good intentions, it failed, sometimes spectacularly.
I see what seems to be _so much_ damage done in the Church and _to our Christian witness_ by folks who just can’t not “let their light shine,” though it seems to me it’s more of that spectacular failing, because they don’t wait on the Spirit. If they did, then we’d see the fruit of the Spirit made manifest. But more often than not, we don’t.
Waiting on the Lord in prayer, being silent, living in that “exile,” increasingly seems to me to be the Way. Let action, if it is needed, come from that.
01:20:50 Rachel: That is why I put my hand down all the time! I am so behind. :)
01:21:58 Rachel: That is so true.
01:24:36 Eric Williams: Some people embracing brutal honesty are more interested in the brutality than the honesty. That's why my spider sense tingles and I get anxious when some people pontificate about boldly and loudly proclaiming the Faith to secular society. I think a lot more of us should embrace silent and hidden holiness than should attempt evangelization or apologetics.
01:24:56 Eric Williams: (Sorry. Got behind trying to type on my phone.)
01:25:37 Ambrose Little, OP: Much more concise than me, Eric! 🙂
01:25:40 Cindy Moran: Thank you, Father!
01:25:45 Ryan Schaefer: Thank you!
01:25:47 Rachel: Thank you Father!
01:25:49 kevin: thank you!!!!
01:26:02 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!
01:26:26 Rachel: 6 am here
01:26:31 Cathy: Prayers
01:26:34 Rachel: 🙏🏼
01:26:39 Eric Williams: It's not often I'm called concise, Ambrose ;)
01:26:39 carolnypaver: We will, Father. God bless you in your transition.
01:26:46 Sheila Applegate: prayers!
01:27:55 Art: Thank you Father!
Wednesday Jun 01, 2022
Wednesday Jun 01, 2022
We began this evening with Step 3 “On Exile.”The connotation of the word, as we discussed, can lead one to think of punishment or being removed from the things that are needed or loved. However, as we make our way through the step we begin to see that exile is a path to freedom. It is a gradual turning away or separating oneself from the world in order that one might become inseparable from God. At the heart of exile is a deep desire for God; the longing of the heart that leads one to run toward Him as the source of life. The more we begin to see this truth the clearer it becomes to us that we cling to things with a sense of needing them for meaning or purpose. Exile is so important because it removes that illusion. It shows us that so many things that we have had in our lives hold no lasting promise within them. God is to be the beginning and end of all things for us; and exile gives birth to the kind of detachment that allows us to be ever so confident in what He alone can provide.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:14:06 FrDavid Abernethy: page 63, para. #2
00:14:22 David Robles: Dear Father David, Thank you for inviting me to the meeting today. What step and section?
00:14:58 FrDavid Abernethy: page 63 par 2
00:15:02 FrDavid Abernethy: On exile
00:15:21 Robyn Greco: hi , Hope everyone is well
00:15:23 Sheila Applegate: This time the link said it was a malicious link.
00:15:37 Sheila Applegate: But the zoom one works.
00:16:12 Anthony: Do you spray with Copper Sulfate, Vicki?
00:16:14 David Robles: I'm not using your edition. I have the Holy Transfiguration Monastery Edition.
00:16:30 FrDavid Abernethy: Thats the edition we use
00:16:33 FrDavid Abernethy: 2012
00:17:28 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Greetings too!
00:18:07 Joseph Caro: fr
00:18:13 David Robles: Mine is 1991. Second edition
00:18:16 Fr. Miron Kerul-Kmec Jr.: I don’t like being a boss! Haha
00:18:45 Joseph Caro: I have been meaning to thank you for the little book you sent awhile ago, but I keep forgetting! thank you!
00:19:24 David Robles: Step 4 Obedience starts on page 20.
00:23:43 David Robles: Oh I see Exile. Found it
00:31:27 David Robles: Father, would you agree that the intensity and character of the exile for a lay person, a cenobitic monk or a hermit are different levels? Is there an interior exile that is the same for all?
00:32:29 David Robles: St Isaac the Syrian is pretty radical on this, as it is required of a hermit
00:36:04 Anthony: This keeping the "mind" inseparable from God, is he referring to cogitation, a constant stream of thought, or something else? Is "mind" more like "nous" or heart or merely presence here? I'm thinking it's not cogitation, since that can be exhausting and since the Fathers remind us our imaginations can willingly and unwillingly be the playground of evil.
00:39:25 David Robles: Dianoia is rational discourse
00:39:32 Sam Rodriguez: St Paul often talks about Sin and Death as Dominions. Where there is a Dominion of Sin, a Dominion of Death. Or, in other words, that we are born into a Lordship of Sin, a Lordship of Death, by virtue of Original Sin. And thus, to be "Delivered" as a Christian, represents being transferred from one Kingdom to another. To be transferred to the Kingdom where Jesus is Lord. And Has Dominion over our lives. Where our lives no longer belong to ourselves. Our bodies no longer belong to ourselves. They have been ransomed at a price. And thus, I'm wondering if this language of Exile is a restatement of a Deliverance process. Where its not that those things in our lives are bad, but that they require His Lordship in order for the Goodness of those Created things to be Received and Revealed and Shared. Being intentional about how we use our time. Or our phones. Or approach our relationships. That we are actively inviting Him to continually Conquer our attraction to those things, Exercise His Dominion over them.
00:45:35 Bridget McGinley: I recently came across the book The Way of a Pilgrim. I am memorized by his desire for separating himself from the active world to desperately seek the concept of unceasing prayer yet he does not enter a monastery and wanders the earth mixing with others. Unceasing prayer is a commandment from God, correct? This concept of exile seems unloving to the Eastern societies especially in our country where human contact is considered charitable. When we want to separate even from family and friends because they distract us we are sometimes accused of lacking "charity" but it is well understood in the Orthodox cultures that this is a great gift. I relate to what Robyn just said.
00:49:34 Joseph Caro: the idea of exile (separation) to keep us inseparable to God reminds me of marriage , where one keeps themselves from others in order to be in union with ones spouse.
00:52:27 Sam Rodriguez: Regarding what Father shared earlier, saying that we should perhaps genuflect before a newly-Baptized baby.... there's a beautiful story of St Louis IX, the French King. After one of his babies was Baptized, the Saint is reported to have joyfully picked up his baby and gave the baby a kiss, right where the baby's heart was, and exclaimed "Hello, Jesus!"
01:01:49 Ren: There is an interesting reversal at play here. Normally, when we say someone is exiled, it is exile from something/some place - a banishment from the good, the community, the kingdom - and the place of exile does not matter at all. Here, however, exile is an action taken for the sake of something, and the place of exile - that place in which the soul remains unseparated from God - is the only thing that matters.
01:04:42 Ren: Much the same kind of reversal that turns the barren desert into a place of encounter with Life itself!
01:06:18 Erick chastain: how does exile give place to the demon of sensuality?
01:15:09 Ashley Kaschl: Exile being the mother of detachment makes a lot of sense. While we’ve been talking about exile in a way that it leads to greater intimacy with God, a direct confrontation with the passions, and a renunciation of the world, I learned it the other way around: that, almost by proxy, a choosing of Christ over everything else in the day-to-day life, moment by moment, leads one to be exile by default. Is this the thought of the West, that one winds up in exile through intimacy with Christ, while the East encourages exile to find that intimacy with Christ?
01:18:29 Rachel: YES!! Fantastic points!
01:19:31 Rachel: 🙃 wow
01:20:03 Ashley Kaschl: Great. Thank you, Father!
01:22:47 Anthony: Slavonic. ;)
01:24:08 Ren: Hi baby Orlandi!
Thursday May 26, 2022
Thursday May 26, 2022
Superb group tonight! Thank you all so much for the wonderful comments and questions on two very challenging steps.
Synopsis:
We continued this evening reading Step 2 on Detachment and the beginning of Step 3 on Exile. Saint John makes it very clear to us that detachment from the things of this world and seeing ourselves as living in exile are rooted not in a hatred of the world or of others but rather in our desire for the perfect love of Christ.
Our passions draw us back again and again to the sickness of our sin. Even when we have left many things behind we can feel a very tangible pull back to them. Therefore, St. John tells us that we must embrace Christ with an unconditional and absolute love and devotion; as He has given his love unconditionally and without limit.
All things begin and end with love. Our asceticism, all of our disciplines, must be rooted in this love otherwise we will find ourselves isolated from others and from God. Even the monks who embraced the deepest solitude of the desert understood that they did so as part of the body of Christ; that the embrace of deep solitude and silence brought them to a greater intimacy with every other person and allowed them to see the action of God within the world and creation.
The break from the world of which these first three steps speak is meant to allow us to run freely and swiftly toward Christ, our Beloved.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:11:31 Sharon: When I tried to log into the link at the top of the email, it wouldn’t log in saying that you were in session with Evergetinos. The link at the bottom did work, obviously!
00:12:01 Sharon: Obviously because I’m here! That wasn’t meant to be snarky!
00:14:06 Rachel: me too. PC
00:14:29 Bonnie Lewis: I always have to use the bottom link. No biggie
00:14:29 Sheila Applegate: mine did not work. android phone.
00:14:33 Debra: Sharon, I got a warning saying the top link was a Threat! Ooooo
So I logged in with the bottom link too
00:14:36 Sheila Applegate: said unavailable.
00:21:01 Debra: Our Diocese 'moved' the Ascension to Sunday
::eyeroll::
00:21:23 Ashley Kaschl: Same
00:32:36 Sam Rodriguez: I'm reminded here of a quote by then Cardinal Wojtyla: "Freedom is the means, Love is the end." Our culture often confuses our understanding of Freedom by defining it as "freedom to" (do this or that) as opposed to "Freedom from" (Sin and our appetites, etc). And that we lose sight of the fact that our Freedom is brought to Perfection in Love. And that is it's very purpose. The Saints in Heaven still retain their Freedom. They have Freely chosen Love for all Eternity. And therein lies the relationship between this detachment, this Freedom of Heart, and our Call to Love. It seems to me that one could think of Freedom as *the medium* through which Love travels, just as a wave may travel through a medium. If we seek to grow in Love, it seems that, what's needed, is more to clear the way for Love to Move Within us and Through us, precisely by seeking this Freedom of Heart
00:33:50 Josie: wow
00:34:00 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: double wow!
00:36:24 Debra: Who's going to follow ^^that^^
00:39:44 Anthony: If this life is not for all, but for a comparative few, why is the monastic life presented as "if you want to obey Christ, completely detach and be a monastic?"
00:44:34 Josie: Is it possible that the solitude can lead to a kind of self centeredness perhaps in some kind of people? I understand that the focus on love is the thing that keeps a person safe from the danger, but what is love in this spiritual sense, with very little concrete manifestations (like others to serve or even to forgive) ? Is love in this case a focus on God? Contemplation?
00:44:45 Josie: sorry I hit send by accident
00:51:17 Josie: but it's also not simply a focus on self and becoming "perfect", right?
00:57:10 Anthony: garlic, leeks
00:57:15 Ren: Cucumbers!
01:08:51 Sam Rodriguez: Regarding this, something I've found helpful to try to be grounded in is this: If it's good, God gets the credit. I can only take credit for my mistakes. lol
01:15:40 Anthony: Maybe some of the self will and desire to propose oneself as great in an area is a symptom of a demonic attack on a person's worth - a subtle and constant message "you are worthless.
01:21:09 Ashley Kaschl: If this isn’t very coherent....I’m sorry. 😂
01:21:12 Ashley Kaschl: This reminds me of something in “Imitation of Christ” by Thomas á Kempis. That when we suffer, we should remember that we are “on probation” and that we shouldn’t rely on or place our hope in the world, nor seek to justify ourselves to the world who won’t always understand. I think that Catholics, who are on fire for the Lord or who are firmly in their vocations, run up against the temptation to not be misunderstood by the world, to not offend when teaching the Truth. It’s as if the temptation of vain glory today tries to be popular and holy, which is antithetical to the spiritual life.
Anyway, the rest of the quote goes: “It is good for us sometimes to suffer contradiction, to be misjudged by men even though we do well and mean well. These things help us to be humble and shield us from vainglory. When to all outward appearances men give us no credit, when they do not think well of us, then we are more inclined to seek God Who sees our hearts. Therefore, a man ought to root himself so firmly in God that he
01:21:43 Ashley Kaschl: will not need the consolations of men.”
01:22:56 Sam Rodriguez: GREAT points, Ashley
01:26:10 Ambrose Little, OP: There is a flip side of that, too, and I think we have to be careful both ways. We can enjoy being counter-cultural and want to in a sense stick it to the “world” to show just how different we are. In that way, we are risking a kind of pride that we're better and want to show it off by being combative unnecessarily.
01:26:51 Ashley Kaschl: Yes 💯 👆
01:28:10 Rachel: lol
01:29:35 Rachel: Thank you!
01:29:48 Anthony: cookie
01:29:53 Ashley Kaschl: Thank you, Father! Good to see you!
01:30:19 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father...great session!
01:30:20 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father David. Happy to have class tonight!
01:30:21 Debra: I'm on Brave, with Avast...and Avast thinks the shortl ink is a threat
01:30:23 Cathy: Thank you Father! Prayers
01:30:33 sue and mark: good night and be blessed
Thursday May 05, 2022
Thursday May 05, 2022
One of the participants in tonight‘s group on the "Ladder of Divine Ascent" described St. John’s teaching on Detachment as a “mic drop moment.” The psychological insight and the understanding of the fickleness of the human mind and the wiles of the ego are presented to us in such an unvarnished fashion that there is no denying the truth of them.
Yet – there is something in this that is incredibly uplifting to the human heart. The truth though difficult to hear and even more difficult to embrace is liberating and offers freedom. To have a first taste of this in these paragraphs on Detachment is something wonderful. We begin to see that the monks were leaving behind everything within the world not because they hated the world or hated others; but because they were drawn there by He who is infinite and absolute Love. Within the human heart is an urgent longing for what God alone can offer. In Him we come to see the meaning of our own lives and who we are. We step into Reality. And even though this may be very difficult and even though we may want to avoid it more often than not, if we allow ourselves to be drawn by the Lord, allow Him to take us by the hand and lead us into the truth of His Life and the reality of His Love - what an indescribable joy comes over the mind and heart.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:02:28 Lita's iPhone: Happy to be joining you all! I’m nursing my newborn so I’ll be without video 😊
00:02:37 FrDavid Abernethy, CO: welcome!
00:03:04 Ashley Kaschl: LITA! 🙌🏻
00:05:26 Robyn Greco: hi Father, Hi everyone
00:08:34 Carol Nypaver: May the fourth be with you!
00:25:49 Joseph Caro: The nuns in the movie Sister Act might have profited from a reading of Climacus!
00:30:20 Ren: I am particularly moved by the insight at the end of the last paragraph, which states that we can be tempted to disparage those in the world in order to avoid despair. Fascinating that, not possessing the faith and love necessary to find value in our life in Christ, we can turn to disparagement of others in an attempt to build ourselves up. I feel this happens a lot in our day.
00:33:58 Josie: so this is why the "why" behind detachment is so important..
00:35:11 Sam Rodriguez: Some phrases here that come to mind are "I must decrease so that Jesus may increase." Or that "It is not I who live but Christ who lives within me." That we are emptying ourselves of self, yes, but we are emptying ourselves unto the Fullness of Him. And thus, if He Within us, while Living Through us, Calls us out into the world for a Mission, then that's radically different from the Enemy shaming us for not following Him the way the Enemy says that we should, during an attack. Because, if rightfully lived, it is He Who Is Stepping into the world, through our Yes to Him. Our Yes to Him Continuing His Incarnation Through our Yes, even if it will inevitably be within the context of our own personal brokenness. Could be in the Desert. Or the "Desert" of the city. Or in the concrete realities of a Present Moment, where there is a Call to Radical Love, whatever that Moment, that Call might look like. It belongs to Him, not us. Just as *we* belong to Him, not ourselves.
00:46:23 Robyn Greco: ouch
00:49:40 Debra: What?! You mean monastic life isn't all incense and Gregorian chant...gardening, and making coffee, and beer?
00:49:53 Ashley Kaschl: 😂😂
00:50:50 Robyn Greco: wow...6 is what those of us today would call a mic drop moment. no beating around the bush and ever so true
00:54:44 Carol: can't help comparing this to the adoration and attention an expectant mother receives vs. the relentless hidden self-sacrifice of new parenthood
01:03:09 Lilly: One should be very mindful of their inner struggles and not enter monastic life to ‘escape’
01:04:26 Anthony: "Monastic" and "curmudgeon" are two distinct and different modes of life.
01:10:39 Robyn Greco: lol
01:11:30 Robyn Greco: You Father? a curmudgeon? I don't believe it.....🤣
01:11:42 Debra: 😆
01:12:26 Erick chastain: honestly I seem curmudgeonly when everyone around me is saying obscene things and I have to tell them that they are doing wrong.
01:13:07 Robyn Greco: I have to go, dog needs her insulin shot. Thank you Father, see you all next week
01:14:37 Lita's iPhone: Thank you!
01:14:44 Cindy Moran: Thank you Father!!
01:15:05 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you Father!!
01:15:06 Josie: thank you
Thursday Apr 14, 2022
Thursday Apr 14, 2022
We picked up this evening with Step One “On Renunciation of the World”. St. John‘s focus is on entering into the spiritual life, the ascetical life, fully. We are not to make excuses out of our past sins or let them become impediments to our engaging in the spiritual battle. Psychologically they can become exactly that. Shame can make us hold back from opening ourselves to God and the healing that He alone offers. Likewise, fear of what lies ahead and the discipline involved can keep us from investing ourselves fully. Rather, we are to respond as if we were called by an earthly king; eagerly leaving everything to go to him and remaining alert lest he should call us day or night. We would never give ourselves over to sloth or cowardice knowing that we would find ourselves under the king’s judgment. Thus, we are to enter into the spiritual life unfettered by worldly concerns. Whether one is a monk or living in the world, one must have God as the beginning and end of all things - the very center of our existence. He must be desired and loved above all things.
If this is true then we will charge into the “good fight” with joy and love without being afraid of our enemies, the demons. They know the movements of the mind and the heart, the patterns of behavior that they observe within us and whether or not we are scared. Therefore, John tells us, we must enter into the battle courageously for no one fights with a plucky fighter.
Naturally St. John begins by focusing on the early moments of the ascetical life. God by design protects the novice in the spiritual life in order to keep him from falling into despondency. He hides the difficulty of the contest. However, if God sees a courageous soul He will allow him to experience conflict and to be in embattled in order that he might be crowned all the sooner. Thus, God will allow us to be tested if it will perfect our love and virtue and if He sees our zeal for Him.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:09:34 Robyn Greco: i could listen to you preach anytime Father, because you're such an excellent teacher
00:18:20 Ren: The number of men who started chuckling just then was pretty fantastic. Caught on camera! :-D
00:18:40 Debra: 😄
00:18:40 Cathy: i was thinking the same
00:24:28 Sam Rodriguez: Have heard it said before “if we don’t make time for prayer, we’ll never find time for prayer.”
00:24:48 Debra: Is removing prayer time, and saying that we are too busy, a sign of spiritual warfare....or 'just' allowing our will to 'win?
00:25:16 Debra: Sorry...I don't know how to do the digital hand lol
00:25:57 Carol Nypaver: Go to “reactions”
00:26:20 Debra: Oh! Thanks, Carol!
00:26:32 Carol Nypaver: 😇
00:26:56 Ambrose Little: Alt+Y on Win; Opt+Y on Mac
00:27:16 Debra: Thank you!
00:27:23 Carol Nypaver: 👍🏻
00:29:24 Ambrose Little: Did you really go to college if you never pulled an all nighter?? 🤔
00:29:35 Debra: Yes! Fr. D, I've experienced that...a peace when I've pushed through my will, to pray
00:30:19 Vicki Nichols: I never pulled an all nighter either
00:31:05 Carol Nypaver: Same, Vicki. I can’t function without sleep.
00:38:38 Sheila Applegate: This. Above. Not because I am an asetic but I can't function as a human without 7 hours plus. Carol. :)
00:39:37 Carol Nypaver: In living the Gospel, how do you NOT offend people?
00:44:25 RiccardoO: “You will not be far from the Kingdom of Heaven” has an interesting ring to it. Not far, but not yet in the Kingdom. Am I correct to interpret the list in this paragraph as the starting point? Is there another step that Climacus is not mentioning here, along the lines of the invitation of Jesus to the young rich man, “if you want to be perfect..”?
00:49:16 RiccardoO: Thank you father.
00:50:30 Rachel: LOL Nope, that would be me.
00:53:56 Robyn Greco: Ive lived on anxiety almost all my life but recently when I slow down and give it all to the Lord the fear leaves, literally, its holding onto that, that is the hard part
00:54:45 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: I heard that the demons can't read your mind. Is that true?
00:56:35 Debra: I wonder if Fr. Rippenger has talked about whether or not demons can read our minds
00:56:54 Robyn Greco: He has Debra
00:57:38 Robyn Greco: If you search on YouTube Father Rippenger you'll find talks he's done
00:58:24 Robyn Greco: I keep hearing about this "centering prayer" stuff but have no idea what it is
00:59:57 Debra: Robyn, I have one of his books...I went to get it lol
01:00:44 Debra: Yes....a 'little knowledge' is a dangerous thing lol
01:00:53 Robyn Greco: I've been told it's dangerous so I think I'll just keep staying away from it
01:01:34 Sam Rodriguez: Fr Ripperger gives an answer very similar to Fr Abernethy. One element that Fr Ripperger emphasizes is that they can access our memory and feed “thoughts” into our minds (for lack of a better term) and create confusion within us between our own inner voice and theirs
01:01:35 Ren: I love your thought about the problem being our over-reliance on ourselves. If we are weak, we are weak; that is not the problem, because God’s grace can work through that. Fear, and, essentially, the lack of trust in God that it exposes, is the real problem that leaves us vulnerable to demons.
01:03:01 Wayne: Need to attend church Services tonight.. Happy Easter everyone.
01:05:56 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: 🙂
01:08:19 Rachel: If not only other people but demons can read us so to speak in order to attack us and pull us away from God through fear, can it be that when one by grace, little by little comes closer to Christ, in turn, that person because of their close proximity to Christ can ward off attacks? Where a person is able to discern more easily because they have kept the waters still. I think of Saints like Saint Maximus. Where many were against him and he kept pressing on able to discern and not abandon Christ. ( E
01:08:42 David Robles: Dear Father David, I am an Orthodox Christian in the Patriarchate of Antioch. This coming Sunday is Palm Sunday for us. Next week is Holy Week. I would like to wish everyone a blessed Easter. Christ is Risen! Truly, He is risen! We sing an ancient hymn,
01:09:50 David Robles: Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death and upon those in the tombs bestowing life. 🙏😀
01:09:54 Carol Nypaver: Easter Blessings, David!🐣
01:10:47 Michael Shuman: Amen, David.
01:11:33 Cathy: Thank you David Palm Sunday Blessings and have a Holy Lent.
01:11:59 Ashley Kaschl: There’s a good book by the late Fr. Gabriele Amorth called “An Exorcist Explains the Demonic: The Antics of Satan and His Army of Fallen Angels” and it might clear up what demons are able and not able to do. 😁
01:12:02 Sam Rodriguez: When our sufferings and trials seem to pull us farther from God and hurt our relationship with God, is it perhaps our own preconceived notion of what is a “good” thing to happen vs a “bad” thing ultimately the source of that wedge? Given that any sufferings or trials that God Permits, we can trust that He Has Covered them all in a greater Good
01:12:32 Sam Rodriguez: Grace
01:14:23 Carol Nypaver: Thanks, Ashley.
01:14:55 Ambrose Little: St. Paul spoke of something like this as a thorn in his side that he beseeched God to take away, but God said, “my grace is sufficient for you; my power is perfected in your weakness.”
01:15:01 Robyn Greco: Been trying to find a spiritual director for years, they are, sadly, a rare breed these days
01:16:35 Robyn Greco: We see across the street, God sees 20 miles ahead of us
01:16:56 Sam Rodriguez: I’m reminded of a prayer that Mother Teresa prayed regularly: “Heavenly Father, if there’s anything I’m doing that’s not your Holy Will, please let it fall apart in front of me.”
01:18:13 Bonnie Lewis: I love that Sam.
01:18:49 Sam Rodriguez: 🙂
01:18:56 Debra: ❤️
01:18:56 Rachel: Yes, lots of baggage affects our vision. Throw it overboard!
01:21:34 Babington (or Babi): Thanks be to God
Thursday Apr 07, 2022
Thursday Apr 07, 2022
As we step further into this first reflection of St. John Climacus on Renunciation, we begin to see how he paints with broad strokes. His intention is that we would begin this journey with a clarity of focus. Our asceticism is to be driven not by our own will or by fear or by hope of reward - but by love.
So often, we can turn the ascetical life into a matter of endurance, or self-punishment rather than a means of healing and drawing us into deeper intimacy with God. Thus, all the images that John uses in this first step call us to let go of our preconceived notions of the spiritual life and of God. We are to allow Him to draw us forward and His Spirit to guide us along the path that fosters our sanctification and salvation.
God wants us to enter this path with zeal and fervor. Love must fuel the fire within the heart that makes us run with swiftness when Christ calls us. We are to run with love and be motivated by desire. God and the pursuit of divine things cannot be set aside anything within this world as comparable in value or importance. God must be the beginning and end of all that we do. We must be ever so careful not to become calculating in our view of the spiritual life and never asceticism as another means of self-help. In fact, the self must be set aside in order that we might constantly gaze upon the face of Christ. It is Love that motivates us and beckons us and it is this Love alone that will bring us to what our heart longs for the most.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:09:25 Cindy Moran: Good Evening!!
00:09:46 kevinferrick: Yes good eve!!!
00:13:59 Edward Kleinguetl: In a secular culture that is at war with the values of the Gospel
00:23:20 iPad (10)maureen: Sorry it was on by mistake
00:30:12 Bridget McGinley: Wow Father, that insight is profound as with the comparison of the Biblical texts. Thank you
00:30:18 Eric Williams: Stone is a building's foundation. Brick structures are built on top. Should pillars be
built on bare earth? I don't know, but my guess is that doing so makes a structure vulnerable to ground eroding underneath. So, we must start our ascent will a solid foundation, for to attempt advanced ascesis too quickly would invite disaster. We might ask ourselves how firm the ground is under our ladders.
00:33:34 Ryan Schaefer: I think it is easy to focus on how much energy we put into putting awareness in Christ, rather than directly focusing on Christ. Does that make sense? Something that I have been thinking about this past week.
00:33:52 Andreea and Anthony: What page/paragraph are we at?
00:34:06 Anthony: 14
00:34:11 David Robles: Father, if a good foundation is Love and Chastity (see #8), and Innocence, fasting and temperance, which take time to learn (see#10), how can we attain to that in the beginning to be used as a foundation? In other writings Love is the summit of the spiritual life. What kind or measure of love do we need at the beginning? How is that love different from the kind of love that is our goal?
00:34:13 Carol Nypaver: 56. 14
00:36:58 Joseph Caro: Wow, I really love your interpretation of #14 Father. I thought at first it was good to build on stones. . .but your interpretation made me notice that the first two people are building structures (a stable dwelling place, either way -- pillars on bare ground might not be within building codes but it would make a house anyway) whereas the third is running free. That's a strange juxtaposition that is only illuminated by your explanation.
00:37:13 David Robles: Thank you Father. That makes sense!
00:39:47 Eric Williams: I don't mean to belabor the point, but I may have insight as a runner. Attempting to run a race or a hard workout without warming up first could lead to either injury or poor performance. So, this metaphor doesn't strike me as very different from the others.
00:40:49 Sam Rodriguez: We live in a time of celebrity Priests and Catholic speakers that can often engender a cult of personality, self-promotion, and product-mindedness in much of our current catechetical offerings. When one contrasts that phenomenon against what St John Climacus, it seems to point to some concerning implications as to the spirit as to how current and future generation of Catholics might be formed, if not checked
00:41:39 Rachel: This is a pernicious temptation where when one is trying to avoid multiplicity they are in fact focusing too much on self
00:41:39 Sam Rodriguez: *contrasts that phenomenon against what St. John Climacus is saying
00:42:42 Andreea and Anthony: Everyone is needed in the Lord’s kingdom. My wife and I have benefited greatly from Bishop Barron and Fr. Mike Smitz, Fr. Dave Pivonka, etc
00:45:22 Anthony: Simplicity vs multiplicity. It may be better to smoke or drink in peace of heart on one's own porch than to listen to many Catholic teachers on YouTube.
00:46:03 Sam Rodriguez: Oh I agree, Andrea and Anthony. And I'm not saying its intrinsically bad. But I'm saying it *can* be bad... and i'm not pointing to any particular Priest/Speaker... and quickly acknowledge that many are wonderful and holy... but i'm speaking to the aggregate impact that such phenomenon can have to people seeking to give their life to ministry.... the glitz and allure of celebrity can be distracting... and launching a ministry such as that can sometimes rely upon self-promotion, which inherently carries spiritual risk and must be checked...
00:46:33 Andreea and Anthony: Judge not that you may not be judged. We cannot know how God is acting in someone else’s souls
00:48:26 Sam Rodriguez: If you re-read what I'm saying in those past two comments, there is no judgment intended to be expressed. This is merely a caution flag being waived. Nothing more.
00:48:29 Ren: My mind is also turned to the man found building a barn on the night he is going to die, and to Christ speaking of the destruction of the physical temple, and the enduring nature of the temple of his body. Everything in the New Testament, and here in this chapter, points us towards a less earthly, less secure (in one sense) way, and towards total abandon to the person of Christ.
00:52:01 Anthony: And it came to dust because it was intended to receive Messiah. But when Messiah was rejected, the earthly glory was dismissed.. It's a warning for our cathedrals and basilicas too.
00:52:16 Robyn Greco: sorry im late
00:58:12 Sam Rodriguez: Amen, Father. Thank you
01:04:01 Ambrose Little: ❤️
01:05:51 Robyn Greco: i lost my spot can someone tell me where on page 57 we are? thank you
01:06:08 Rachel: I wonder at the examples of monks who fell away because of the lack of clarity Fr. Abernathy was speaking of a few minutes ago. The clarity Father A speaks of seems to be one received at every moment, from Our Lord through union with Him in whatever degree and capacity we are able to in that moment.
In relation to St. John C., we will be pulled down by fears manifested in different idols and desires. The labor and grief also seem to be the pain that comes from the Divine Sculptor chipping away our illusions, of self and more importantly God Himself. Consumed by God Himself Also, ! I am not too sure what sublimation, that you mentioned means, so I will have to look up what you meant and how that related to what your were saying and how it relates.
01:06:15 Erick chastain: the joy of virtue should not exclude tears of compunction though
01:06:55 Rachel: Yes, Erick, a joyful sorrow. :)
01:07:43 Rachel: I was thinking the same thing. btw and am not afraid to say it lol
01:08:25 Rachel: What is peace?
01:12:37 Andreea and Anthony: Listening to the story about the Franciscan whose gift to the poor was destroyed by them before they could benefit, should we draw the conclusion that building on a large scale for others is always a mistake and a way of self-aggrandizement? For example, should Pope Saint John Paul the Great not have started any of the “big projects” he started such as World Youth Day, visiting so many countries, the work of the Catechism, Theology of the Body, etc … Should Saint Teresa of Calcutta not have built any of the homes for the poor? THAT was the way SHE was called to be the face of Christ in the world …
01:12:55 Andreea and Anthony: From Anthony: Regarding the idea that as soon as we try to enter the kingdom things go south, that seems very discouraging. Why would anyone then attempt it? It seems to me that God allows trials in accordance to what we need for the salvation of our souls, not allowing the devil to crush us immediately.
01:14:00 Erick chastain: joy should include suffering and compunction, it is not a worldly joy
01:14:54 Erick chastain: suffering with christ
01:17:04 Cindy Moran: Thank you so much!
01:17:12 Rachel: Thank you
01:17:21 Sam Rodriguez: Thank you. Father!!
01:17:24 Rachel: If you say so lol
01:17:38 Rachel: Yes, it is drinking pure light
01:17:48 Ann Grimak: Thank you 🙏
01:17:56 kevin: thank you
01:18:08 Anne Barbosa: Thank you =)
01:18:11 kevin: Love Newman!
01:18:12 Debra: I like that the questions/comments are typed out, so I can go back and read them, if I've had to step away from the computer
01:18:28 liz2: Thank you Father!!
01:19:12 Rachel: lol I love this group
Thursday Mar 31, 2022
Thursday Mar 31, 2022
Thank you everyone who participated in the study of The Ladder of Divine Ascent tonight. Your questions were both beautiful and challenging.
Synopsis:
As we continued our reflection upon Step One “On Renunciation” St. John makes it very clear that we must enter into the spiritual battle with a zeal and desire for God; we must leap into the fire if we really expect the celestial fire to dwell within us. None of our ascetical practices, or the renunciation of the world that John speaks of in this step, can be abstracted from our relationship with God and what he desires to give us. The firm foundation upon which the spiritual life is laid is innocence, fasting, and temperance. Like a child, a babe, we are to have a simple trust in the care of our heavenly father, we must allow him to nourish us upon that which we need. Our love can know nothing of calculation or sly deceit. This is essential John tells us. We must begin the spiritual life with clarity about who we are before God and what it is that we seek.
Likewise, we must enter into the spiritual life not lagging in the fight. A firm beginning, John tells us, is useful when we later grow slack. We will all face trials and turmoil in the spiritual life and it is our first love, our first desire and zeal for the Lord, we must remember in order to set our hearts aflame once again.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:11:22 Cathy: Now thats Divine Providence!
00:11:36 FrDavid Abernethy, CO: Yes. I thought so.
00:16:19 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Where can you find the text Father is reading from?
00:16:53 Sean: Paragraph 9 at the bottom page 55
00:17:57 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: Thanks but is there a pdf file one can get this from? I do not have the book. Just started with you all. Thanks.
00:18:40 Sean: I don’t think so
00:18:44 Ren: There is no PDF that we have access to. The book can be purchased at: https://www.bostonmonks.com/product_info.php/cPath/75_105/products_id/569
00:19:16 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: OK Thank you.
00:20:56 Anthony: I have a problem with laying off all things. For example, although Christ went into the desert for 40 says and was often in prayer, He _did not_ utterly cast off His family. His Mother was with Him. He had friends. He had family mentioned in the Gospels and Epistles.
00:28:55 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: http://www.prudencetrue.com/images/TheLadderofDivineAscent.pdf found a PDF
00:29:36 Cathy: Great! Saint John Climacus is looking our for you!!
00:29:50 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: 😇
00:30:30 Anthony: And this is where a spiritual father, an elder / staretz, and Catholic Culture come in. They can regulate us to be neither puritanical nor lax
00:41:31 Ambrose: fortitude maybe
00:42:19 Rachel: that is a wonderful chapter!!
00:45:14 Anthony: YOU ARE RIGHT
00:59:56 Anthony: Synergy. This is fundamentally opposed to the monergism which is the heart of the Calvinist American culture.
01:05:40 Michael Shuman: This is a really good question.
01:09:47 Joseph Caro: sheen talk: https://youtu.be/5e5oPIHnHQs
01:16:41 Carol Nypaver: Thank you, Joseph! I love Ven. Archbishop Fulton Sheen!🙏🏻
01:17:18 Anthony: The more one loves, the more one suffers when the love is offended. That is how I see Our Lady suffering at the foot of the Cross most closely with the suffering and loving Christ
01:19:37 Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt: colossians 1:24-26
01:19:58 Ashley Kaschl: “God has created me to do Him some definite service. He has committed some work to me which He has not committed to another. I have my mission. I may never know it in this life, but I shall be told it in the next. I am a link in a chain, a bond of connection between persons.
He has not created me for naught. I shall do good; I shall do His work. I shall be an angel of peace, a preacher of truth in my own place, while not intending it if I do but keep His commandments.
Therefore, I will trust Him, whatever I am, I can never be thrown away. If I am in sickness, my sickness may serve Him, in perplexity, my perplexity may serve Him. If I am in sorrow, my sorrow may serve Him. He does nothing in vain. He knows what He is about. He may take away my friends. He may throw me among strangers. He may make me feel desolate, make my spirits sink, hide my future from me. Still, He knows what He is about.”
- St. John Henry Newman
01:20:38 Cindy Moran: Thank you!
01:20:56 Jos: thank you
01:21:24 Cathy: My favorite night! Happy Feast Day!
Thursday Mar 24, 2022
Thursday Mar 24, 2022
After laying some groundwork in the previous weeks we finally stepped in to the meat, as it were, of John‘s writing.
We took up once again Step number One “on renunciation”. John moves very quickly to lay out before us the reasons why one would embrace the renunciation not only of the monks in the desert but of the ascetical life as a whole. The two fundamental reasons are the multitude of our sins and the love of God. The beginning of the spiritual life most often is the simple acknowledgment of our poverty and the infirmity that sin brings into our life. We see the emptiness of this life outside of our relationship with God. The acknowledgment of this truth bears the fruit of repentance; a fundamental turning toward God with streams of tears and heartfelt groanings that reflect an interior reality. It is then that God, as he did with Lazarus, orders that the stone be rolled away from the tomb and that we be unloosed from the passions that hold us in their grip.
Yet, John would not have us see this as a path that we take in isolation. It is always to be trod with a guide or a director, a Moses figure. We need those who can help bring about the healing of the passions of the soul by their care as physicians. We need to be guided by those who have lived a life equal to the angels; that is, who have been freed from the corruption of their wounds and so have become experts and the most skilled physicians/surgeons. We do not live our Christian life out in isolation but only in communion with others and strengthened by those who have been transformed by the grace of God and the ascetical life. This life, John tells us in an unvarnished way, requires violence and constant suffering; a dying to self and sin in order that our hearts might attain to the love of God and the love of chastity and all of the other virtues. There will be great toil in this battle and the false-self, that kitchen dog addicted to barking, John tells us, is only overcome by the one who becomes a lover of chastity and watchfulness.
The foundation of this journey is the courage to offer our souls to God in our infirmity, the faith to trust in Him, and the humility that we might bare all before his healing light of His Grace.
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Text of chat during the group:
00:11:31 Cindy Moran: What version of the book is being used?
00:15:58 Anthony: copyright 1979 Holy Transfiguration Monastery
00:18:01 Fr. Miron Jr.:
https://www.bostonmonks.com/product_info.php/cPath/75_105/products_id/569
00:53:17 maureencunningham: What was the book Psychology Orthodoxy wombs the writer?
00:53:58 Fr. Miron Jr.: https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Psychotherapy-Esther-Cunningham-Williams/dp/9607070275/ref=sr_1_2?crid=174I4J6U16QTR&keywords=orthodox+psychotherapy&qid=1648080810&sprefix=orthoodx+ps%2Caps%2C94&sr=8-2
00:56:02 maureencunningham: Thank you
01:16:51 Ashley Kaschl: “The life of man upon earth is a warfare, and his days are like the days of a hireling.” (Job 7:1, DRA)
01:24:50 Rachel: wow!
01:26:04 Rachel: How many times have the faithful heard in the midst of the battle, the same comparisons. A mistaken notion that the engaing in the battle means one has lost their " peace!?"
01:26:43 Bonnie Lewis: Thank you so much Father David.
01:26:45 Cindy Moran: Very good session thank you
01:26:53 Miron Kerul Kmec: Thank you
01:26:54 Rachel: Thank you Father and everyone.
01:27:09 Samantha Topolewski: Thank you!
01:27:20 Carole DiClaudio: Good night everyone!!
Thursday Mar 17, 2022
Thursday Mar 17, 2022
Tonight we resumed our reading of Step One on the Renunciation of the world. The step fits into the larger context of a break with the world which includes, John tells us, detachment and exile. Here is where monks sought to remove everything from their lives that would keep them from focusing solely upon God and what He alone offers. As Christians we may not imitate the monk in living in the desert; yet, in reality, the desert exists within the human heart. The renunciation that John speaks of in this first step must exist within us as well. There are many ways that we have to let go of the things that hold us within their grip; the passions (sins that have become habitual), disordered desires that make us long for satisfaction and seek it within worldly goods and the fulfillment of the appetites.
In paragraph 4, John begins to define for us the various types of Christians. He does this not as an abstraction but rather as a frame through which we can view our lives. He paints with broad strokes and asks us to gaze deeply into the image to see if we recognize a reflection of ourselves. Are we an irreligious man (not thinking of God at all), a transgressor who distorts the faith in a depraved fashion? Are we a Christian who seeks to imitate Christ in word, thought, and deed - who believes in what God has revealed of himself to us; namely, believing in the Holy Trinity? Are we the lover of God who seeks to live in communion with all that is natural and sinless? Are we the continent man, who in the face of temptations and turmoil, struggles in order that he might be free? Have we interiorized monasticism in the sense that we seek a chaste love, purity of heart and mind? Do we remember death so as to cling to He alone who is our life? Have we set aside the things of this world voluntarily; not because they are evil but because we are a naturally attached to them more than we are attached to the love of God?
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Text of chat during the group:
00:34:39 Anthony: We are tied to an evolutionary metaphysic - to our detriment.
00:35:13 Anthony: "We" being society, even Christian society adopt evolutionary "becoming'
00:36:54 Eric Williams: I think Thomas à Kempis made a good effort to remind Western scholastics of the bigger picture.
00:38:18 Ambrose Little: Some people are more intellectually inclined, and God can use that to draw people to himself.
00:39:20 Joseph Caro: good point Ambrose! I agree, from my own observations
00:39:21 Edward Kleinguetl: To be fair, Aidan Nichols--who I referenced-- is a Dominican.
00:39:34 Ambrose Little: Fr. Garrigou-La Grange, O.P. is great. Highly recommend: Christian Perfection and Contemplation: According to St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross https://amzn.to/3JlEwrP
00:39:57 sue and mark: God will and can use who ever a
00:40:05 Fr. Miron Jr.: Let's return to Climacus
00:40:12 sue and mark: whoever and where eer you are to bring you to himself
00:40:57 Carmen Briceno: aren’t we doing the same thing now? over intellectualizing what has happened rather than going back to the sources?
00:58:23 Joseph Caro: “It is a mistake,” says St. John Chrysostom, “to imagine that one can in one’s own strength vanquish concupiscence and preserve purity; by God’s mercy alone can the passions of nature be controlled.”
01:02:58 Bonnie Lewis: This humility will reveal great truths about ourselves.
01:03:08 Mitchell Hunt: Where was that quote from above nothingness and humility? Amazing
01:03:14 Mitchell Hunt: About
01:07:34 Ren: @MitchellHunt - Mother Mectilde de Bar’s “Breviary of Fire.” The chapter on Pride and Humility
01:10:45 Erick: this is pure gold. each sentence of this is an outline of the spiritual life
01:11:19 Anthony: It takes experience in the world to see the trials and sorrow which result from the Curse, and we really then long to be free and to live in accordance with our nature (created and "deified").
01:13:49 Cathy: We can not have 2 gods... We will despise one
01:18:37 Mitchell Hunt: Thank you Ren
01:18:40 Eric Williams: Material comforts are like agglomerations attached to us. As they increase in number, they add to our “mass”, and as mass increases so does gravitational attraction. The more things we amass, the more we draw toward ourselves. With a little more thought one might find an interesting metaphor to be made from the accumulation of accretions becoming so great that a black hole is formed.
01:20:17 Anthony: God is the "Philanthropic One." Beautiful title.
01:22:45 Sean McCune: Eric: We become a nothingness that pulls everything in our grasp to ourselves where they are also become nothingness.
01:25:09 Sean McCune: (It took your comment about material things to get this secular Franciscan to say something) 😏
01:26:40 victoriaschweitzer: Righto. We must receive. We cannot approach with the mindset that we have to accumulate spiritual goodies. Ask and you shall receive.
01:28:21 Eric Williams: Indeed, Sean. The funny thing about massive bodies is that they interact with others. Either we enter into harmonious orbits or equilibria with other persons, or we are rogue bodies that collide with others or gravitational abysses that absorb and destroy all that falls within our sphere of influence. (Have I beaten this metaphor to death yet? 😉)
01:29:14 Mitchell Hunt: I think some people have have missed tonight due to your time zone change recently. Got me on Monday night
Thursday Mar 10, 2022
Thursday Mar 10, 2022
Thank you to all who attended the group on the Ladder of Divine Ascent. It was wonderful to see so many with the desire to sit at the feet of the great Saint and teacher John Climacus.
Synopsis:
Tonight was our inaugural group reading the Ladder of Divine Ascent by Saint John Climacus. We allowed ourselves to jump immediately into the text with step number one “On Renunciation.” We will unpack things as we move forward; including the anthropology and the psychology of the fathers, the language used by Climacus and historical details from his life.
In the first three paragraphs Climacus begins his writing with God, who he describes as the source of life and salvation for all, believers and unbelievers, just and unjust, pious and impious, educated and illiterate, healthy and sick, young and old. He then goes on to define the Christian and the monk and how their identity determines the way they live their lives. Freedom is set out as imperative. God has created all free beings and offers salvation to all. This is the essential frame in which we are to read the rest of the book and understand the ascetical life. We freely seek to give ourselves and our love to God and to embrace the love and grace that He has given to us. Our asceticism is not simply an act of endurance but rather an act of freedom and love. Outside of this the ascetical life loses any sense of purpose and meaning. Likewise we look to the elders, to the fathers in their virtue and purity of heart for their guidance in word and deed. They in turn engage us not as impartial observers or analysts but rather as those who are fellow strugglers in the pursuit of God and of the kingdom. It is the love and desire for the salvation of those in their charge that guides and directs their care of others.
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19:27:40 From FrDavid Abernethy, CO : https://www.thepittsburghoratory.org/_files/ugd/5299f8_4fb9f89659424fcb997865abbdef4d24.pdf
19:29:16 From siobhan from pittsburgh : Hi Im Sandra
19:29:32 From Michele : Dave and Michele Berthelsen are here.
19:29:52 From siobhan from pittsburgh : not Siobhan
19:29:56 From Rachel : 🙏🏼
19:30:25 From kevinferrick : Hello everyone, newbie here from Boston. Hope I navigate the zoom alright
19:30:45 From Sr Mary of our Divine Savior solt : Hi, God bless, Sr. Mary of our Divine Savior
19:31:09 From Amil : Perhaps in the grand scheme of things, we are all pretty tiny.
19:31:23 From siobhan from pittsburgh : I love it!!
19:32:24 From Ambrose Little : https://pghco.org/climacus
19:33:24 From Carole DiClaudio : Hi Kevin!
19:33:46 From Carole DiClaudio : Hi Sr. Mary!
19:40:39 From Joseph Caro : If there is a handout, can the link be posted here? thanks!
19:40:58 From Sean McCune : https://www.thepittsburghoratory.org/_files/ugd/5299f8_4fb9f89659424fcb997865abbdef4d24.pdf
19:41:55 From Miika : Good Morning everyone! First time live! Miika from Finland
19:42:30 From Carol Nypaver : Very cool! Welcome, Miika!
19:42:37 From Carole DiClaudio : Hello Miika!!!
19:42:53 From Rachel : 2-3 years! I hope I have that many ( blessed) years.
19:43:35 From Carole DiClaudio : :)
19:47:38 From Erick Chastain : Sorry, I ended up breaking into this zoom room by pure luck I guessed the link. I didn't sign up
19:48:01 From Ashley Kaschl : 😂
19:48:31 From Debra : I always fumble around to find the link
19:48:31 From Erick Chastain : If Fr wants me to leave since I didn't sign up, he or Ren can notify me
19:48:47 From Debra : BTW...thank you Ambrose for the link!
19:49:03 From Ambrose Little : Write it on your heart and on your mind.
19:49:15 From Debra : It's a weird URL
19:52:27 From Ren : No worries Erick :-) All are welcome. Even the hackers ;-)
19:52:55 From Carol Nypaver : 🤣
19:52:55 From Fr. Miron Jr. : 🤣
19:54:02 From Anthony : Wow, this is different than - as in other teachings - "elect" and "reprobate"
19:55:42 From Ren : WOW. Beautiful.
19:56:20 From Jim Milholland : How poetic
20:02:48 From Anthony : "These Noetic creatures" as Father said. That reminds me of this phrase used by St. Gregory of Narek: "Rational Flock."
20:02:59 From Fr. Miron Jr. : https://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Psychotherapy-Esther-Cunningham-Williams/dp/9607070275/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3954VB8PGOFPM&keywords=orthodox+psychotherapy&qid=1646874171&sprefix=ortodog+psychoterapy%2Caps%2C61&sr=8-2
20:05:07 From Rachel : Yes!!
20:06:45 From Fr. Miron Jr. : same seminary experince duing my years...
20:10:26 From Lilly : I didn’t know him until last year
20:10:58 From Gilmar Siqueira : Translated into Spanish by Friar Luis de Granada :)
20:12:34 From victoriaschweitzer : Good point, amil !
20:13:40 From Carole DiClaudio : I thought the same thing, Amil!
20:19:36 From Amil : 🕊️
20:22:37 From Rachel : Bingo
20:27:51 From St. Stanislaus Kostka Religious Education : We simply have to keep ourselves focused on God. No matter what our 'poverty' limitations....not looking at each other's abilities or place in the world...just keep focused on God and ask for God's help.
20:34:03 From maureencunningham : Thank you
20:34:07 From Miika : Sadly theological education in the Nordic countries is also very one-sidedly rationality centered. (At least amongst us "protestants" -not that I protest anything personally...as far as I know)
20:34:22 From Rachel : lol Carol
20:35:12 From iPhone : thank you
20:35:18 From Rachel : Thank you Father and everyone. God bless!
20:35:23 From Bob and Tara Bartz : Thank you!
20:35:24 From Ben David : good night good fight
20:35:30 From Mitchell Hunt : Thank you Father
20:35:31 From Michele : Thank you!